April 8th, 2013

California Newspaper All Riled Up Over PINAC Reader's Comments (Updated II) 334

By Carlos Miller

I’ve never been one to delete comments on this blog, even if they happen to be insulting towards other readers, because I prefer to side with the First Amendment in these matters.

In fact, I’ve only deleted a handful of comments on this blog since I launched it in April 2007, mainly comments that are calling for the murder of police officers or security guards not only  because these can be construed as threats and lead to legal intrusion from authorities, but because I don’t think calling for murder is something that should even be said in jest.

But insults between readers or even towards myself is something I’ve allowed to remain because I understand sometimes the discussions can get heated and I believe in free expression, even if it includes words that unsettle some people.

But now there is a newspaper editor and her boss who are getting bent out of shape because a PINAC commenter referred to her as a “bitch” and a “cunt.”



It all stems for the article I wrote last week regarding Monterey County Weekly photojournalist Nic Coury who was detained for photographing the Naval Postgraduate School from a public street.

I stated that the newspaper will not report on the incident in order to not appear confrontational.

I admit I wrote that statement based on my previous experiences and observations of mainstream media newspapers’ lackadaisical approach to dealing with authorities who detain their photographers and not on any specific insight I had on the Monterey County Weekly, which turns out to be an award-winning independently owned newspaper with a solid reputation for journalism.

So I understand if that statement would upset editor Mary Duan and the paper’s CEO and Founder, Bradley Zeve, who sent me an email today, demanding that I not only delete the comment but I permanently ban the reader from ever accessing PINAC again.

And this is a guy who tells me he serves as “Free Speech/First Amendment for a national press association (Assoc. of Alterneative Newsmedia).”

Meanwhile, Duan is asking me on Twitter and on Facebook why am I allowing my readers to call her a cunt?

It’s a fair question considering most mainstream media sites would probably not allow such a word.

In fact, just last week, WPLG refused to allow me to post a link to my blog in a story they wrote about the 82-year-old lady who was tossed off the Miami-Dade Metrorail for singing gospel music.

I wanted to let their readers know that this was not an isolated incident. And WPLG, who never reported on my attack by Metrorail security guards, later told me on Facebook that they have a policy to not allow outside links in their comments section.

And that’s their right, so I didn’t make any more issue about it after that, although it shows they are missing the point about interactivity between readers in this day and age of New Media.

In her comments on PINAC, Duan accused me of being a shoddy journalist because I stated that they would never report on this incident, even though she claimed she would be addressing the issue in her next column, which won’t be published until Thursday.

Coury, by the way, reported on Sports Shooter that he had been detained a second time, but I guess that wasn’t enough for the newspaper to publish something about the incidents on their site last week (so my original statement still remains accurate).

Anyway, the whole thing is pretty stupid, and I probably would have deleted the comment   except I took issue with Zeve’s email dictating to me what is acceptable and unacceptable for my site (as well as who should be allowed to access my blog) not to mention Duan accusing me on Facebook of hiding my “misogyny behind the constitution.”

You would hope she would focus her energy on writing the piece on Coury’s detainment on their site instead of twisting this whole issue into a feminist argument because it’s really about him, not her.

So I’m wondering what you guys think. Should I or should I not delete the words “cunt” and “bitch” from the comments section?

Before you answer, please read through Zeve’s email, which is posted in its entirety below:

You missed the mark completely concerning our photographer being detained. Shabby journalism, at best.

Monterey County Weekly not only was standing by our photographer, but we were poised to sue the Navy had they persisted in their approach to restrict our rights. Your opinion about it all was amateurish, and you didn’t do your homework. That’s unfortunate.

A little of our history (had you done so you might have discovered):

Monterey County Weekly won General Excellence, First Place, for all large circulation weeklies in California last year. We’re a finalist this year, again. That’s because we’re tough, and our journalism is first rate.

Monterey County Weekly sued Suterra and won, over their fight with us over trade secrets (and our willingness to publish their ingredients in a phermone they were planning to spray throughout California).

Monterey County Weekly was the only alt-weekly in the country to send a reporter to the front lines of both Kuwait during Desert Storm and again, into Iraq (unembedded).

That I serve as the Free Speech/First Amendment chair for a national press association (Assoc. of Alterneative Newsmedia).

Frankly, I’ve read your blog now, and the various attacks on Monterey County Weekly. I’ve read one of your users call my editor a bitch, and then a cunt. I’m amazed you wouldn’t delete those posts, don’t tell your users to show some respect to all readers, and that you think this contributes to the overall dialogue about the first amendment. Had you done some research, you would have discovered Mary Duan, the editor under attack, won a national award for best political column last year.

I think it’s time you deleted those postings, post some commentary about what is acceptable and unacceptable dialogue for your site and delete that user permanently from using your site. That’d show some class on your side.

Otherwise I’d say your blog is nothing more than a piece of shit, and contributes to hate and bigotry. What does Carlos Miller stand for?

UPDATE: Monterey County Weekly editor Mary Duan has gone on a rampage against me over allowing the word “cunt” to be used against her on my blog, proving that the word hit a little too close for home.

After challenging me on Twitter and on my Facebook page, which I keep public, she dedicated a post to me on her own Facebook page, which I am not allowed to comment because thankfully, we are not friends.

In that post, she called me a “pig” and a “douchebag” and went on to say that my girlfriend is way too young for me, basing her assumptions on pictures I have on Facebook, including one sexy shot I took of her baking cheese biscuits in which I caught her by surprise.

She also went on to say that the only reason me and my girlfriend are together is because either I have money or she has serious daddy issues when the truth is, I am just three years older than her. She just has good genes that keep her youthful.

Click here to read the whole discussion, including comments from PINAC troll and Duan’s White Knight in Shining Armor, Joe Livernois, pictured below.

Her friends are all egging her on in this fight, stating that I have finally met my match in confrontation, which tells me that Mary likes to take the shots, but obviously can’t handle the shots.

The truth is, I can wipe the floor with this woman because she already made the mistake of exposing her weakness, but I would rather not bother because I have more important things to do with this site.


UPDATE II: As I mentioned in my last update, Mary Duan felt the need to drag my girlfriend into this matter, accusing her of being way too young for me and only being with me because I have money and she has daddy issues.

Very misogynistic statements from somebody who accuses me of being misogynistic.

Even if her statements were true, it would be highly inappropriate and unprofessional for a newspaper editor to start psychoanalyzing my relationship on a public forum based on a Facebook picture on my wall just because she is peeved that one my readers called her a cunt.

It should be added that Duan, who has since deleted her comments from Facebook or might have just set her profile to private to keep her rants within her ultra-politically correct friends, prides herself on Facebook as being one of the “mean girls from the South Side of Chicago.”

My girlfriend is understandably irked because she had nothing to do with this brouhaha, so she decided to respond to Duan on her own blog, which is appropriately titled Rachel Unleashed.

Essentially, Miss Mary Mean Girl got her panties all up in a wad because Carlos wrote the story on his blog before her “weekly” publication did.  She goes on to criticize his writing skills, which is absurd given Carlos’ credentials and influence in photojournalist rights & activism.

PhotographyisNotaCrime.com reached almost 400k hits last month, and continues to grow daily.  Carlos is an amazing writer, and he writes the stories that other publications are too scared to publish.  Carlos has been a one-man-show for 6 years and doesn’t have a staff of 27 like the Monterey County Weekly.  I wonder how many hits Miss Mary Mean Girl gets on her stories, but I’m sure it’s not anywhere near Carlos’ stats.

Rachel also included the photo I snapped of her as she was baking for me that prompted Duan’s attack on her. She is also emailing the link to Duan and Zeve to ensure they read it.

And with that, I hope this little controversy ends.

Send stories, tips and videos to Carlos Miller.
  • Amy P

    Clearly she’s a total bitchcunt. I don’t think moderating comments has anything to do with real/shoddy journalism. The journalism part is what YOU write, not what WE write.

  • Ryan

    A total bitchcunt that thinks that winning awards actually means something.

    • Guest

      It does! It means you have kissed the right ass.

    • Ryan

      OK, I guess I should provide a serious response as well…

      I think that you’ve got it exactly right, Carlos. People that get that bent out of shape over some words should grow a little thicker skin.

      • Jimbaux

        I’m surprised, Ryan, that you’re participating in the name-calling.

    • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

      If it is worth saying, it is worth saying with your actual full name attached, isn’t it?

      • RaymondbyEllis

        NM, are you new to the internet? The argument of “but you aren’t using your name, I am, so my words have more worth” was laid to rest long ago, and not in your favor.

        The authors of the Federalist Papers used the pseudonym “Publius”. I guess it wasn’t worth saying.

      • Difdi

        There’s also some pretty intense hypocrisy in you complaining about someone else using just their first name to comment, when you don’t even do that much. I kinda doubt “Guest” is your legal name.

        • RaymondbyEllis

          Hey, if Fink is in the “phone book”, Guest is likely there. Does lack the Christian name though, unless he is the artist formerly known as…

    • http://www.facebook.com/jim.morriss.14 Jim Morriss

      “Bitchcunt?” Really? Is that a bitch + a cunt, a bitch with a cunt?… It does seem a bit redundant. Exactly what is your definition of each? Now that I have thought about it I guess there is a subtle difference. Both are condescending, spiteful, mean, conniving, back-biting, and self-centered. To me the difference is a bitch does it by nature without a plan or purpose where a cunt does it with planning and on purpose. So perhaps it should be “bitch-cunt” or “bitch/cunt” Unless, of course, we are talking about a real canine then i suppose it would indeed be a bitch cunt.

      Hmmmm I seems I’m being a man cunt at the moment….

      • Fotaugrafee

        I think that was the point, knob-gobbler. :D

  • http://www.facebook.com/andrew.cook.564 Andrew Cook

    tell them to take a chill pill carlos. my opinion is that you are either for the first amendment or against it. you can’t go just half way. freedom of speech means freedom of all speech. even that speech that you disagree with and that which you may find offensive. once you start censoring, where does it stop?

  • darksideblues42

    Some Editor…..”two incidents about which you no precisely nothing” Shouldn’t that be “know”?

  • Clark

    Leave them. They want to control their site, but get bent out of shape about controlling your own site.

  • SocratesGS

    Blaming you for your reader comments is like blaming guns for the actions of the shooter… oh wait… they do that don’t they.

  • http://www.facebook.com/john.neis.7 John Neis

    Wow what a bunch of douchebags. It really goes to show they are more concerned with protecting their image than protecting Nic or his first amendment rights. If they spent more time doing journalism instead of monitoring the internet looking for people who bad mouth their laziness, maybe there would already be a story about these incidents. But I guess since they only plan to detain their photographers whenever they feel like it, it is not a big deal. Let me guess, these genius’s think that if they did something illegal on the NPS grounds they would only talk with them and try to make things right. No idiots they would prosecute you to the fullest. Yet they are so chickenshit they wont even file a lawsuit for the illegal actions taken against their photographer. Notice I say photographer and I dont say newspaper, because we all know as photographers the place we work for doesnt care about us one bit. And this crap of a publication proves it, by trying to hide these incidents and hoping that posting something a week after the fact will suffice for journalism.

    Monterey County Weekly; If its Happening now, we will tell you about it next week.

    • http://www.facebook.com/christy.p.herring Christy Porter Herring

      Dude. It’s a WEEKLY publication.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=647684635 Carlos Miller

        They have a website that they update frequently with much less interesting news

  • guest1

    What exactly are you contributing to the public discourse by moderating name-calling? Shock value?

    • Jimbaux

      That’s basically it, and distracting us from the issues that brought us here in the first place.

  • Your Mom

    Oh, how “high and mighty” of them. A rather boasting e-mail. Do me a favor, and tell them to shove their “awards” up their ass. What your readers write has nothing to do with your own opinions or beliefs. Silencing and censoring your users shouldn’t even be a priority. That’s a quick way to lose your readers.

  • http://twitter.com/vincedia Vincent DiAngelus

    This blog is about the freedom of photographers. When that freedom is violated in any fashion I expect that to be reported here. If you ignore that violation and choose to not report or bury that issue that we (blogger and readers) are here to follow, then you can be as “first rate” and “tough” about the other topics as you like. If you try to defend yourself by pointing out how “tough” you are on the other topics by posting on and emailing PINAC…that is a bitchy move.

    Leave the comments, and stand by the fact this paper still has not acknowledged the incedent that brought it to your attention.

    • Jimbaux

      She said that something will be published about the incident on Thursday. So, please join me in waiting until then to read it. Is there a reason you need her side of the story – which may be quite complex – right now?

      • hazy

        How long should we wait on an analysis of what we all know is wrong? It took Carlos 1 day, it should take them the same.

    • Difdi

      Part of the right to freedom of speech/expression is the right to say things other people don’t like or get offended by.

      Nobody ever needed constitutional protections for a right to say exactly what a listener wants to hear, after all.

    • hazy

      Not only do they ignore the civil rights violation, it was their own journalist’s rights that got violated! If that doesn’t motivate them to get the story out as quick as possible, then nothing will. Time is of the factor and getting the story out will only help your cause. Their explanation that they were considering their legal end game does not make sense.

  • nrgins

    I agree with your position. Illegal threats should be removed. Coarse speech is at the discretion of the site. If MCW doesn’t want those words on their site, then it’s their prerogative to ban them. But it’s just as much your right to allow them. I think it’s fine to allow heated expression, but I agree that calls for death should be removed.

  • Guest

    Bitchcunt needs to realize that the 1st amendment is something we all outside of The Republik of Kalifornia take seriously. They control their site with violating 1st amendment rights, and you Carlos let free speech flow.

    • Jimbaux

      Please don’t use such terms to describe her. It only makes you – and, therefore, many of the rest of us – look like lowlifes. Please stick to criticizing people’s actions and not childish name-calling.

      • Fotaugrafee

        Nothing personal, James, but who cares? This is a blog, not a newspaper. Newspapers exercise censorship because they’re worrying about stepping on someone’s toes. Blogs shouldn’t be held to that same level of ‘care’.

        If they don’t like it, file a Hurt Feelings Report with the Internet Police.

        • Jimbaux

          I care, plenty of other people probably care, and the editor probably cares, since we can have an argument about facts without distracting from the issues with utterly childish name-calling. This is precisely why, despite our (yours and mine) similarity in substance and mindset on the issues, I am still unwilling to associate myself with you and your ways. If you can learn to speak to people respectfully and civilly, without childish name-calling, I might reconsider.

          “This is a blog, not a newspaper.”
          What difference does it make in this case? People are people.

          • RaymondbyEllis


            It only reflects on the commenter. If I were arguing with a White Supremacist nothing he said would reflect on me, only my arguments back would.

            In this instance, asking for civility on what is essentially an American political blog (as it questions the actions of the State versus the Laws of the State), is like asking your mother to remain a virgin. American political discourse has been anything it not raucous, incivil, even slanderous.

    • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

      This is where the wonderfully apt work “moron” would apply, as well as coward. Most such comments come from anonymous posters.

      • RaymondbyEllis

        The majority of comments come from people using monikers. Those names are used because of the issues tied to the internet (employer repercussions, stalking, etc.). Publius, for example, was a moniker to avoid reprisal.

        Anonymous is different and leads to all sorts of confusion.

  • Jimbaux

    Referring to the editor in those terms is disgusting and unbecoming. I, however, also don’t delete such comments from my blog, merely because stupid stuff like that says far more about the person saying them than they do about whom it is being said. I have had some nasty things said about me in the comments section of my site, and I’ve just left them there for the aforementioned reason, as anyone who takes the time to look will see.

    Ogie Ogelthorpe apparently isn’t the kind of person I want to hang around, merely judging by his disgusting comments, and it’s too bad he had to (mis)represent us in such a way that serves as a distraction from the very real issues of what the MONTERREY COUNTY WEEKLY did or did not do.

    On that note, I think we should all refrain from further comment until the editor’s piece – her side of the story – is published later this week.

    Thank you.


    • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

      What is there to be gained by posting ugly things that “says far more about the [often anonymous] person saying them?” Can we avoid the person thereafter by crossing the street or not attending his parties? We already know there are creeps in the world, and another reminder is redundant.

      • Jimbaux

        I don’t know. Ask the people who post such things! I don’t post such things!

  • http://SocialMedia305.com John Mahoney

    He’s all about moderation, however, he appears to be part of the problem he’s crying about and I quote: “I’d say your blog is nothing more than a piece of shit” – real professional right there.

    • dissentingd

      I agree with John. As soon as he says if you fail to do as he wants, that “your blog is nothing more than a piece of shit” I lost any willingness to compromise.

      This is a great example of the differences between new and old media. Blog commenters can call people names and that’s ok; newspapers can’t allow that behavior because of corporate sponsorship, and its this lack of journalistic integrity that is one of the many reasons old media is dying.

      I’d rather give money to Carlos and let him call it like he sees it any day, then read politically-correct bullshit free-or-not.

      This is also a great example of how Facebook quickly delves into personal, rather than professional, discussion (and yes, I believe you can call someone a “bitch” professionally), which is a great reason to avoid too much social media.

      If people are offended by what others say about them on the internet, ignore it, argue with the trolls, or take your ball home and learn to deal. Its not the host’s, ISP’s, or society’s problem.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dleveillee Dan Leveillee

    This is the perfect example of how some media has gone so far leftist that they’ve circled around to fascism in some cases.. We need balance back in our society.. Extremists are destroying it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

      You got all that our of an objection to being called “cunt”? I don’t think you will be the appropriate “balance” advisor.

      • Jimbaux

        Right, how do you get anything about the “left-right” thing out of this???? How??

        • RaymondbyEllis

          Because it’s a false dichotomy that lends itself to about anything you want to claim such as “Republicans are Fascists/Nazis” and “Democrats are Socialists/Communists”? Perhaps in this case he was thinking of the need to censor speech you don’t like. (Censorship is done by government, but one can be a censor in private life if you call for, demand, others to speak only what you think they should.)

          • Jimbaux

            Right, but different governments across the political spectrum have been guilt of that. This is not a left-right issue.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            Absolutely. It’s why the whole left-right thing is a false dichotomy.

      • hazy

        The editor tried to play the sexism card to curb free speech on a site about..free speech. Think about it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/cincinnatimatty Matthew Korte

      I agree that this publication which prides itself on its progressive cred is exhibiting an ironic narrow-mindedness. Tough journalists have thick skins.

  • http://www.facebook.com/robert.bowling1 Robert Bowling

    Considering that the primary point (as I see it) of PINAC is defending the First Amendment and increasing awareness of the threats brought about to it by the US Gestapo (DHS) and similar Bush Era Terror organizations (The TSA) I would advise that you leave them in place and admonish the Editor of the paper that he is way out of line trying to dictate to you how you conduct the business of your media outlet.

    I would however encourage readers to keep their comments civil. Namecalling and profanity really don’t solve anything and only, in my experience, add fuel to the fire in an argument.

    Finally I suggest that the woman in question should not be publicly haranguing you on FB and Twitter and should be brought up short by her Editor for it.

    • RaymondbyEllis

      Could we please use Cheka or even NKVD, at least once in awhile? The Gestapo gets tiresome because they actually knocked.

      “US Gestapo (DHS) and similar Bush Era Terror organizations (The TSA)”. Yep, they’ve gone away since Obama. Oh, wait, they’ve grown stronger.

      I’m still working on that original terror organization charged with keeping dossiers on political dissidents circa 1937. Luckily for all of us, Wilson was long dead.

    • BMTLines

      Calling them “Bush Era” organizations is getting tiresome. The Democrats have done nothing to limit or reduce the power of these organizations in the last six years either. AFAIAC both major parties are responsible for these organizations and their abuse of power

  • http://twitter.com/Stoutlagger Rob

    Please don’t delete anything.

  • Veech

    This newspaper is pretentious and contradictory. Leave the posts up, Carlos.

    • Ron

      I agree. This newspaper is just a bit too impressed with itself.

  • Keith Tipton

    (Disclosure: I’ve contributed real money to this website’s upkeep.) Nuke the comments. It’s clear the person posting them would rather call names than say something particularly constructive (even complaints can be constructive, but these are not), and it doesn’t help the conversation move forward one bit.

    • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

      Absolutely right. An intelligent comment is rarely, if ever, supplemented by an inarticulately grunted expletive. It has the additional effect of alienating people who might be sympathetic to Carlos’s cause without good reason. In this context, the people who resort to trash talk are generally people insufficiently intelligent or literate to express themselves interestingly or creatively.

      • Jimbaux

        Right, it distracts greatly from the message that we are trying to convey, and it’s just stupid.

        • RaymondbyEllis

          “In this context, the people who resort to trash talk are generally
          people insufficiently intelligent or literate to express themselves
          interestingly or creatively.”

          In this context, that’s a sweeping generalization that borders on intellectual masturbation (meaning you pleasure yourself with your smugness about others, or something to that effect without dropping the “pleasure yourself”).

          Really, over the word bitch? What, you want on every comment a taste of Faulkner, Hemingway, and Dos Passos, or Gogol, Doestoyevski, and Turgenev (I can’t stand Tolstoi so I left him out)? I left Miller out for obvious reasons.

          Right now I’m going for Kafka.

          • Jimbaux

            Well, Raymond, look at how much it has distracted all of us from the real issue, the original issue of the photographer’s detention and the newspaper’s way of handling it.

          • Guest

            Right. I constantly confuse idiots who post comments like yours with Faulkner.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            And to whom do you ascribe that? Certainly not you.

          • RaymondbyEllis


            You left out Hemingway, Dos Passos, Gogol, Doestoyevski, and Turgenev. Kafka was likely a swoosh for you.

            Too busy doing the intellectual masturbation? Go back and read the parenthetical.

            Faulkner, thank you so very much for biting, was chosen for “The Sound and the Fury”, so apt for both of you. I can give and spin a title from each author to smack you, well, except Dos Passos as I am only familiar with his “USA Trilogy”. Must leave me illiterate. I left out Henry Miller because he trash-talked, so nothing he wrote shows any intelligence, literacy, or creativity. Certainly nothing either of you would stoop to read.

            You’re confusion may be a symptom of a disease that needs immediate treatment to ameloriate, at best, it’s early signs. It’s full progression will likely defeat any later treatment.

            This, “the people who resort to trash talk are generally people insufficiently
            intelligent or literate to express themselves interestingly or
            creatively.”, is easily shown to be lacking of what it claims of others. It’s just empty smugness. Is it your blankey?

    • http://www.facebook.com/cincinnatimatty Matthew Korte

      I think the original bitch-calling was a pertinent if cheeky response. The option of cunt-naming was a comment on the umbrage taken by the
      editor. It wasn’t idle abuse.

      • RaymondbyEllis

        My take too. C**t may call out the Mrs. Grundy’s, but in context it was actually rather, dare I say, funny. What, you want worse? Are you talking to me?

        A sense of humor, no matter how skewed, is better than none at all. Then again, I laughed my butt off watching “Pulp Fiction”. I blame it on a bad childhood. They let me read Swift and Twain (“Letters to Earth” wasn’t very nice; Irish babies may be tasty, but the breast cancer was horrific).

        • http://www.facebook.com/jim.morriss.14 Jim Morriss

          I had a public education but even I would finish a though. “They let me read Swift and Twain…” Fast and between what? Common man, don’t leave us hangin!

          That seems to be problem with the other side, they “follow orders”; no critical thinking. They were not allowed to read great literature and then asked to think about it. They were told that ‘bitch’ and ‘cunt’ are bad. So they’re bad and can never be good. It is beyond their powers of thought to stand aside and see the words/thoughts as humor or satire. God forbid they should even see that they might have been a bit out of line or worse, wrong! It requires the ability to have the thought “I was wrong” or “what I was told was not the (whole) truth”, they can’t do that.

          Oh, and Cops are good, you can’t take pictures here, and you have to do what I say.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            Actually, it was a full sentence. Subject-verb-object. The parenthetical was to help those that don’t know either author. The brevity was for response. I left you hangin’, and so you had to ask why. Your “Common man” may be a eulogy.

            After your opening response, I have no idea where you go. I sense the sarcasm, I sense the satire, I even sense the parody of someone’s words. But I have no idea where you go.

            However, bitch and cunt are bad, unless she is. Women know and use such words, though they may whisper so men don’t hear.

            (I started to change “those that don’t” to “those who don’t” but then realized that “that” may be the better word.)

    • JdL

      (Disclosure: I’ve contributed real money to this website’s upkeep.) Nuke the comments

      Disclosure: I’ve also contributed “real money” (what other kind is there?) to this website. Please keep the comments.

    • hazy

      And because you’ve donated to the sitee, we should lend more weight to your opinion? Carlos is also crass sometimes. He will sometimes use vulgarity in his articles so by your logic he should just delete the site.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

    Carlos, I differ a bit on this one. It’s not a First Amendment issue since it doesn’t involve the government. I see nothing wrong with prohibiting certain forms of extreme incivility, and calling someone a “cunt” would qualify. I wouldn’t call anyone a “bitch,” either, but I can live with it. While I entirely sympathize with the editor and CEO, they really do need to develop thicker hides. They have probably published many articles whose consequences have been far more hurtful to the subjects than a vulgar expletive. For instance, perhaps they have reported the name of a prostitute or a john, despite being aware that doing so could destroy families.

    • demize!

      Do you have a dog in this fight or did your eagle soutt meeting just have some time before the bake sale? You dont like lowered discourse? Dont lower the discourse. I however find it important to express oneself freely, so go piss up a rope you insufferable cockwomble. Leave the comments!

      • Jimbaux

        Talk about a pot calling the kettle black. Wow.

        • RaymondbyEllis

          Hey, give him something for “cockwomble”. A really obscure reference to pocket pool though more extensive as it means “the tendency to rummage in your underwear massaging ones genitals as if looking for litter to pick up”. Damn, I love the English language.

          As for this from NM: “I wouldn’t call anyone a “bitch,” either, but I can live with it”. That’s a good live-and-let-live philosophy, given you’re likely in the 0.001% who have never used the word.

      • Gordon Freeman

        Eagle Scouts don’t have bake sales, they are too busy looking for ‘gays’ and rooting them out.

        • Clark

          There’s expression, then there’s slander, your comment is the latter given that it’s presented as not an opinion, but statement of fact. The comments in question by the article, are opinions. Poorly-expressed opinions, but opinions.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            Since it’s written, it’s more libel than slander. Yeah, there should be freedom of association for any group so long as it doesn’t deny public accommodation (a phrase stretched to match the Commerce Clause). BSA should be able to exclude anyone so long as it stays entirely private. It does exclude girls, and I really don’t understand why the fight didn’t start there.

          • hazy

            Your interpretation of what is libel is incorrect.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            Don’t disagree. Didn’t consider it libel, but since written, it isn’t slander either.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=647684635 Carlos Miller

            The comment is way too broad to be considered libel. If he had singled out an Eagle Scout and said these things, then yes, it would be libel if it were not true.

  • http://dailygrackle.wordpress.com NoelArmourson

    Leave the posts up, please. I join others who would prefer civil discourse among us all everywhere we may be, but would wish to see reality as it is regardless. That’s part of what photography is about, isn’t it?

  • JoeLivernois

    it’s my constitutional right to lower the level of debate by pointing out that Carlos Miller is a donkey dick.

    • Difdi

      Your constitutional rights protect you from acts of government. Carlos is a private citizen and this blog is his property. He could delete every comment you ever made on his property and ban you forever, without even coming close to violating your constitutional rights.

      And how do you know what a donkey dick even looks like? Close-up personal experience while catching an STD perhaps?

      • JoeLivernois

        right. and apparently open expression on this site allows me to note that you’re a twat. because, you know, moderating coarse comments inhibits honest discourse.

        • Difdi

          I can decide to be a nicer guy, though I am unlikely to when dealing with people as needlessly unpleasant as you are.. But unfortunately for you, there is no cure as yet for stupidity.

          • JoeLivernois

            This controversy is based on whether a dumbass should allow mouth-breathing morons to call a woman the most despicable thing you can call a woman on his site. And I’M unpleasant?

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=647684635 Carlos Miller

            Why should women be treated any different than men on this site? I’ve seen men call each other cocksucker, motherfucker and so on, but nobody ever raises a hissy fit about that.

            Hell, Johnny Law used to get insulted on a daily basis and he was able to handle it.

            Why can’t a newspaper editor handle it?

          • RaymondbyEllis

            I pointed that out earlier too. Women get to back-hand-press their foreheads and faint while men suck it up (that may have been a poor choice of phrase). Really they’re just words unless you are that thing, if you are it’s just a truth.

            As for c**t, it just means a real or extreme bitch, equivalent to a real cocksucking prick.

            “Why can’t a newspaper editor handle it?” Carlos, he’s standing up for a woman. If you worked for him and were called a prick, a term I find really offensive, he would likely be less outraged.

            BTW, to all, Disqus forces me to RaymondbyEllis but this is Ariel.

          • Freedom_Fighter_of_America

            Women want equal treatment. You can’t have it part way or your not equal.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            The question is which “equal”, which sensibility, the male’s or the female’s? The problem with the question is that neither sex really wants to fully accept the others sensibilities, but the society wants to protect women from men’s “coarseness” while ignoring women’s.

          • Ron

            Not to mention all the white knights leaping to her defense

          • RaymondbyEllis

            And JL handled it really well. The Weekly not so much.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jim.morriss.14 Jim Morriss

            Editors can’t handle it because they spend their lives and make their living making other people “politically corect.”

          • hazy

            Hah, where did that guy go anyways?

          • RaymondbyEllis

            And I sorely miss him. He was a good counterweight.

          • Difdi

            If coming to a blog and tossing around insults about people you don’t know makes you a mouth-breathing moron, then you sir are a mouth-breathing moron. Is there more to you than that? Doubtful, going by what you’ve shown us of your character.

          • Guest

            do the people on this site know Mary Duan? Are they more enlightened than I? They are free to hurl invective about someone they don’t know, but I’m not? unmoderated

          • Difdi

            Actually, nobody hurled invective until someone who appeared to be Mary Duan came storming in here in a rage and dumped a bucket of it onto her own head.

            You were actually the first to sling any at someone else.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            You mean she’s not a victim? She actually started the fight but didn’t expect a fight back? In fact believed she deserves to dish it out but not suffer having it handed back to her? Sir, you are no gentleman in this case, and it speaks well of you.

          • Difdi

            I am in fact a gentleman. I was raised to always be properly respectful of women. It’s not respectful to treat women as children who don’t know any better, nor is it respectful to treat them as harmless regardless of their actions. Few things are more disrespectful than telling someone by word or deed that their actions are meaningless.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            You raise a new definition of gentleman, the one that needs to be raised, while I used the old which needs to sink into the abyss of antiquity. Treating women as children is the old, and too many men still adhere to it thinking they do well by women. But they do no true good for women.

            Dropping the affectation of some 19th or early 20th author: effing A. Women aren’t children; they are equals; they are fully responsible for their actions and those actions should not be relieved by a knee-jerk need to reach for an excuse; and their actions aren’t harmless because they’re women, anymore than men’s actions are harmless or harmful because they are men.

            Try going there on Jezebel or Feministing where gender equality (damn that phrase hurts but I must use it to be in context) is like Orwell’s “Animal Farm”.

          • Difdi

            Heh, my mother is a former NOW chapter president. I was raised with the belief that aside from fathering a child or giving birth, men and women are absolute equals, capable of doing anything the other can do and should be treated that way.

            If a 100lb woman belts me in the jaw, my response is the same as if a 100lb man had done it (puzzled look, rub the slightly sore spot, then restrain the out of control crazy person…I am not small and anyone that small picking a fight with me is certifiable).

            I’ve never understood the mindset that causes people to insist on absolute equality, then refuse to give up any perks they get from unequal treatment. I have a low tolerance for hypocrites, but some of them have a genuine cognitive dissonance on the subject, they truly are unaware of their own hypocrisy.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            Because they don’t want absolute equality, they want qualified equality, where they set the qualifications. And those qualifications will always be in their favor, while being equal. Some are more equal than others, but that doesn’t mean all aren’t equal. Oh, wait..

          • JoeLivernois

            Good for you, Difdi. You’re starting to figure out where I’m coming from.Do the cretins in this comment section know Mary Duan? They are free to hurl invective at someone they don’t know, but I’m not? Why the double standard?

          • RaymondbyEllis

            Actually, you’ve just been hurling invective without any context whatsoever other than your troublesome experience at the San Diego Zoo.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=647684635 Carlos Miller

            If they didn’t know her then they know her now and their assumptions were not far off

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=647684635 Carlos Miller

            But Joe, you’re a “hero” in the eyes of your politically correct cohorts out in Monterey, so keep up the good work!

            But as a competitor to the MCW, did you not think it would be wise to jump on the Nic Coury story considering they are waiting a week before they acknowledge it on their site and newspaper?

            That’s the only real news out of any of this we’ve been discussing.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=647684635 Carlos Miller

            Joe, it would only be a double standard if I were to delete your comments, which I know you’re trying to bait me into doing, but I rarely delete comments.

            So keep them coming. That’s what a hero does, after all.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jim.morriss.14 Jim Morriss

        Difdi: silly you don’t ‘catch’ an STD you ‘get’ an STD and you get it from catching someone else that had one. ( um, did I lust say too much?)

        • Difdi

          Re-read what I wrote. Hint: it was an insult.

        • RaymondbyEllis

          But you can catch an STD by getting someone that has an STD. Playing baseball OTOH isn’t like sex, because in baseball you catch by wearing a mitt.

  • Fotaugrafee

    Just like the railfan community, Carlos, they’re all so terribly worried about “unwanted attention”. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

    In other words, trespass to get your photos & get out of dodge before anyone can catch you.

    I firmly disagree with this mindset in ‘our’ community. If you’re doing something wrong, face the music. If you’re doing something completely legal, stand your ground & record the fireworks for all to see! :D

  • ExCop-LawStudent

    Pull the posts. I understand your thoughts, and I realize that I’ll be in the minority, but it is your blog. What is posted here reflects on you.

    In this case, the comments serve no purpose other than to insult and denigrate in terms that are comparable to the N-word, similar words used towards Hispanics, Jews, etc.

    For those that will claim it is free speech, it is – but Carlos is the publisher and he determines what he will publish. It they want to post that language on their own blog, they are welcome to do so.

    • Jimbaux

      Actually, what is posted in the comments section reflects on the commenter. I get nasty names hurled toward me on my own site (when covering similar issues of threats to photography), but do I delete them? They’re really not about me; they really reflect on the maturity of the commenter!

      • ExCop-LawStudent

        I probably need to clarify.

        It’s Carlos’s blog and whatever he determines is fine. I would not criticize him for leaving the comments up, and had the “ultimatum” from a small throw-away newspaper been directed at me, I would be inclined on thanking them for their opinion and to f**k off.

        Overall, however, I think his blog is better served without those comments.

        He asked for our opinion, so I gave him mine, but like I said above, he’s the publisher of this blog. It’s his call.

        • RaymondbyEllis

          I think Carlos, and he can smack me for thinking for him, has pretty much let the comments section run as a free speech forum where bad speech is countered with more speech, with the limitations he has stated.

          I don’t believe the size or circulation of the paper is germane (other than fighting against a large legal firm), really it’s the ultimatum on something that doesn’t rise to libel but only “I’m butthurt”.

  • MilitantRubberDucky

    As a writer, I think that you took a presumptuous stance on what Monterrey County Weekly’s would or would not do in regards to this. If they did in fact threaten the Navy with legal action, then they may have/be refraining from writing any articles that may impact the proceedings. While I do think it was garish to go on citing all their awards and accomplishments, I think in this case it was somewhat warranted due to you maligning their paper by assuming their actions. That does not mean that you are under any obligation to remove the comments or the users who made them. Speech is protected, even when it is unintelligent, ugly, and misogynistic.

    As a woman, I am not against coarse language. “Cunt” is, in fact, one of my favorite words to use. I don’t however just call people cunts and bitches on its own and leave it be. It’s a garnishment, not a main course, and it’s clear your commenter doesn’t know the difference. I am not calling for them to be removed, it’s your right to keep them up, however instead of using purposely inflammatory language that does nothing to add to the conversation, perhaps he could use his critical thinking skills and actually add to the debate by addressing real issues with her response to your article, as opposed to childish name-calling.

    • http://www.facebook.com/cincinnatimatty Matthew Korte

      I think the original bitch-calling was a pertinent if cheeky response. The option of cunt-naming was a comment on the umbrage taken by the editor.

      • hazy

        I think it was prescient.

  • Fotaugrafee

    The mere fact that she referred to PINAC as “a piece of shit”, that CUNT can gag on my ball bag.

    How’s that for class, honey buns?

    • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

      I can’t speak for her, but I’m thinking it’s the best you can do, which is very sad.

      • RaymondbyEllis

        I agree with you there.

        OTH, this blog has done a hell of a lot regarding PINAC, and I doubt either of you really researched before that blanket “piece of shit”. But I do realize you two were butthurt and responded accordingly, including trying to tell others how they should manage their own blog. The “you’ve hurt my feelings so you need to delete” can make you the butt of jokes on the internet, which butts up nicely with butthurt.

        Not very internet-savvy on your part. Luckily, you’ve not yet reached the brink of Streisand.

        • RaymondbyEllis

          I apologize, I crossed you with Zeve. So you aren’t butthurt. Zeve is and consider my earlier to Zeve.

    • Howard Littell


  • Guest

    I was right the second time. She is a cunt. Fuck her.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nicmart Nicolas Martin

    I’m curious, Carlos, if you would leave up a comment in which one poster calls another “nigger.”

    • Jimbaux

      I would. Again, as I’ve said repeatedly in other posts, it says far more about the labeler than the person whom the labeler is trying to label.

      • RaymondbyEllis

        Only if the labeler is inaccurate about the one labeled. Trust me in this, I hate labels.

    • Gordon Freeman

      I would, I find it very useful to know which people use such language. It gives me a very good shortcut into how they think and how much time I should think about them (none).

      • RaymondbyEllis

        The first word was bitch, rather ubiquitous and used by men and women equally to describe “a malicious, spiteful, or overbearing woman”, the second a retort to her umbrage over the first, the first a word she likely uses to describe women she finds to fit the definition (especially if she’s under 50). Really, her’s was just feigned outrage. His second comment was just a piece of rhetoric and by all this, effective.

        “It gives me a very good shortcut into how they think and how much time I should think about them (none)”, which only means you’re prone to shortcuts in thinking. These four-letter words, often just the words of the conquered, serve a purpose in the language and have survived for century after century for that reason. I doubt you’d say “oh, heavens me” just before you’re T-boned by an SUV.

    • RaymondbyEllis

      If they were both self-identified as black would you tell them they can’t use that word? Good luck on that. BTW, you don’t need scare quotes.

    • Difdi

      I sometimes refer to myself as a haole. I’m about as white as they come. Should I be censored?

      • RaymondbyEllis

        No, because haole means “white person”. You should be censored if you think it means “Hawaiian” or if you are Hawaiian and don’t know it means “white person”. Kanaka was marginally acceptable for Hawaiian. Shaka brah, pinkie and thumb. (Two years stationed at Base Hono, Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii. Never goes away. Aloha.)

        • Difdi

          I’m well aware of what haole means. I don’t know why you seem to think I don’t.

          Haole means white person in pretty much exactly the same way (both in word meaning and usage) that nigger means black person.

          • RaymondbyEllis

            One, because I had no idea your use of “haole” from the earlier comments in the same thread. Haole means “white” , you’re “as white as they come”, so you call yourself haole? So? I’m not as white as they come, but haole is just fine.

            Two, because “haole” in no way is the same as “nigger” in the Hawaiian language, it varies from neutral to an insult if said and meant as such. It isn’t intrinsically an insult. Kanak on the other hand, a haole shortening of kanaka, is. I wish I could remember what the locals called the Japanese, it wasn’t nice.

  • JoeLivernois

    Have I mentioned that Carlos Miller swallows chimp shit?

    • http://www.facebook.com/jim.morriss.14 Jim Morriss

      I thought that was shrimp chips. See how easily you can be mistaken about what you hear.

      • RaymondbyEllis

        Or read. Really, I thought he was referencing a trip to the San Diego Zoo where he had his mouth open when he shouldn’t have, those primates are nasty. After, that projection.

  • http://twitter.com/OgieOgilthorpe7 Ogie Ogilthorpe

    She’s the one who came on all uppity and snarky when being nice and explaining the situation would of gone miles. Then when I call her out for sounding like a complete bitch (which she did) she goes off even more uppity and snarky. Hell, she even admitted she could be “more of a bitch.” Of course, then she proceeds to call me and “my friends” here on PINAC stupid. What the fuck ever lady.

    Carlos, I’m sorry I caused you this headache. I promise I’ll play nice in the sandbox in the future..

    • Jimbaux

      You could have acted like you were older than a middle school student (and acted like someone who passed middle school) and really taken the high ground, but thanks to your unfortunately unimaginative choice of words and name-calling, you’ve distracted everyone from the real issues and made all of us – all of us with well-thought-out arguments and civil-yet-firm ways of standing our ground – look like the lowlife you seemed all to willing to portray yourself to be. Winston Churc