August 20th, 2014

Cell Phone Video Contradicts Police Report on St. Louis Shooting Death (updated) 830

By Carlos Miller

St. Louis police claimed they had to shoot a man to death because they were in fear for their lives after he lunged at them with a knife in “an overhand grip.”

But then a cell phone video emerged contradicting that report, potentially causing tensions to run even higher than they already are in the area that’s been mired by protests and riots for more than ten days now after another cop shot another black man to death.

What’s even more interesting is that they were the ones to release the video, which indicates they probably confiscated the man’s phone, but no details on that yet.

The video shows a man pacing back and forth on a sidewalk as another man records and narrates, but of course, not having the sense to turn the phone sideways.

The man is apparently holding a knife but that is not very evident from what I’ve seen, but he also has one hand in his pocket at times.

Two cops pull up in one vehicle, step out of the car and order him to drop the knife. The man steps up on a ledge, then steps off as if to make his way towards them, which is when they shot him several times.

The entire exchange last 15 seconds.

According to the initial report, police claimed the man had lunged at them, coming within three feet of them, so they had to kill him because, after all, they have the expectation to go home at night – which usually means to hell with anybody’s else expectation to go home at night.

Police say the man took items from the Six Star Market, twice. The second time police were called by the store owner, and a city alderwoman who was watching this unfold. A witness says, “The store owner and the alderwoman said the suspect was armed with a knife, acting erratically, pacing back and forth in the street talking to himself.”

When police arrived, they say the man charged the officers with the knife more than once. The second time they opened fire. Witnesses report him saying, “Kill me.”

The fast growing crowd had one question: What happened to the tasers?!

“So if you`re the family of a police officer and someone approaches you within three feet with a knife, I think you have the right to defend yourself and protect yourself. So I think it certainly is reasonable that an officer has an expectation to go home at the end of the night.” said St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson.

But the video shows he had his arms at his sides and he was probably about 15 feet from the officers when they fired.

The man, Kajieme Powell, 25, was most likely suffering from mental health issues, judging by his behavior.

And we all know that police are the last ones to call in these situations because they will only escalate the situation.

So perhaps we just need to train ourselves in how to handle these situations in case a friend or family member begins demonstrating erratic behavior.

UPDATE: A news report stating that the man who recorded the video turned it over to his attorney, who in turn, turned it over to police, who then released it to the media.

Family members also said he did not have a history of mental illness.


Send stories, tips and videos to Carlos Miller.
  • Difster

    He was at least 25 feet from them when they opened fire and posed NO immediate threat. And people wonder why I despise coproaches.

    Not only did they execute this man they endangered whoever was in the homes behind him.

    Let’s discuss options to deadly force here:
    1) Tasers
    2) Take cover behind vehicles while trying to talk the man down.
    3) Use a bean bag shotgun to disable him.

    • http://photographyisnotacrime.com/members/charlie-grapski/ Charlie Grapski

      Or 4) getting back into the car – and thus not be afraid about a knife;
      5) call for people TRAINED to handle mentally ill individuals – and seek to “serve and protect” him – rather than “shoot and kill” him.

    • http://photographyisnotacrime.com/members/charlie-grapski/ Charlie Grapski

      And yes – in the way they shot – all of those in the vicinity were facing a real and significant threat of death or great bodily harm. But not from the victim. But from the two officers.

      THAT IS NOT a “textbook” case of a justified shooting. That is a good example of the SYSTEM GONE WRONG (not just the officers).

    • inquisitor

      I would say 12 and no more than 15 feet away from the officer when first shot fired.

      If he was still carrying a knife after being told to drop it several times while continuing to close the distance with the officers…then he was an immediate threat.
      With that said, I would not have relied upon a taser, nor a bean bag shotgun, nor a dialogue if I were an officer in this instance.
      I would have done exactly the same and put that bull mangani silverback down.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Well – no – he was not “Actually” an “immediate threat” – he was only a check box immediate threat (If knife AND IF within X feet = Immediate Threat).

        Because the police had AN OPTION.

        They did NOT HAVE TO shoot (and to kill) – to get out of harms way. THEY CHOSE the shooting option.

        They COULD have gotten back in the car and closed the door. And then there would have been NO THREAT (and no dead man on the street).

        As for your last sentence – that is why Americans need to stand up, speak out, and KEEP people with your viewpoint and attitude OUT OF police forces.

        • inquisitor

          Thanks for your opinion…but I say bullshit.

          • Rusty Gunn

            You are just flat out full of schitt.

          • Keyser Soze

            If only your mother had washed out her vagina with a hose before she was inseminated

          • inquisitor

            There are medications that fix that for you.

          • jackassletters

            I think you mean after.

          • Al Verum

            Your a cop or you receive an allowance from one.

          • inquisitor

            No. And if you review my history of posting here you will find I do not support the police…with one or two exceptions regarding stories here at the most…and this is one of those two.

          • Al Verum

            This is so obvious that the cops murdered this guy. You are trying to get others to not believe what they are seeing in the video. I think it is because you are some self credited expert on gun and knife fights.

          • Harry Bolzitch

            What the fuck did YOU see in this video, genius? Did you see a guy, pissed off and ranting, holding a knife, and, against completely lawful orders given by two police officers with weapons drawn, refuse to stop? Because that’s what most people saw. Maybe I should be watching these videos through the same bleeding heart liberal glasses as the rest of you.

          • AS1124

            what this really displays is the utter ignorance and lack of compassion for our mentally ill. Shame on YOU

          • inquisitor

            I don’t think that you think at all.

          • Blanche Starbong

            You are going to get what you deserve. A police state, jackazz.

          • Manny

            Anybody would of got short in the situation come on not race related anybody woulda got it

          • Rail Car Fan

            Some people will stand behind the police no matter what wrong they do!

            Rail Car Fan

          • pwpg06

            you are a A*hole.. go back to your cave ans stay there

        • Kyoju Konton

          I would have taken the shot. Someone is armed, inside 7 yards, and coming towards me; I’m the one going home. Had the shooter not been wearing a uniform, no one would question it. I expect the police to be held to the same standards I am. That means giving them the same right to defend themselves.

          • Aaron

            Really? I expect the police to be held to higher standards than we are. They are paid to put their lives on the line and to be responsible with their firearms, This is about training and attitude, I think, and the reality that the vast majority of police shootings involve mentally disturbed or confused people and officers who aren’t trained to deal with this situations at all. Mostly I’m sickened here by the obvious pleasure some folks here are taking in another person’s death, as though they were the ones pulling the trigger. I don’t understand the satisfaction you feel. I don’t deny that this man made a choice, but we have no idea what state he was in making that choice, and that doesn’t change that the people whom I’m supposed to trust to carry loaded GUNS around all day long aren’t people held to a high of standard of responsibility for their use.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Cops aren’t paid to get stabbed because of your mistaken views.

          • GuamTippedOver

            I’m not sure WHAT they are paid for. At least we all can agree it is definitely not to “protect and serve”. Legally or otherwise.

          • Charlie Grapski

            They are not mistaken views. They are consistent with the HISTORICAL views and PRINCIPLES of this nation.

            The COWARDS among cops (which did not use to be the majority) changed the “practices” and “norms” – without the public knowing.

            THEY NOW KNOW. And those policies and practices – are going into the DUST BIN of history (with their authoritarian/totalitarian predecessors) – where they BELONG.

            Hopefully those COWARDS who think policing is without risk and should be – will LEAVE the job. The system needs a THOROUGH CLEANSING and a RESTART.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            They are MISTAKEN views of an ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT academic who is OUT OF TOUCH with REALITY and the mood of the general PUBLIC.

            Who is mistaken about the HISTORY of police in AMERICA, and has a bias against authority based on his own past errors.

            There ya go, complete with your theatrical use of ALL-CAPS.

          • AS1124

            I assume you have read Rise of the Military Cop? Please do if you haven’t . Well cited and explains what has happened with our police over the past 50 years. Disturbing.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Heidi, before you assume that you know what I believe, try looking at my blog. Yes, I’m aware of the militarization of police, I lived it as it was happening. That has nothing to do with Charlie’s anti-police bias.

          • http://photographyisnotacrime.com/members/charlie-grapski/ Charlie Grapski

            Sorry but that is simply not what drive or informs me.

          • AS1124

            and as you and I know, before the 19th C there WERE no police depts. Thank God.

          • smooth

            “by any other name is still a”

            paid night watch members in Boston since 1701 that “hook” criminals. I get that you’re arguing semantics but are you serious?

          • AS1124

            and theyre not paid by MY tax dollars to MURDER mentally ill people who this society threw out under Reagan in the 80’s . Sickening.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Well, since it wasn’t MURDER (is that enough emphasis for you?), then your tax dollars didn’t pay for the officers who did their job.

            Try to read the entire thread before you repeat what’s already been said. Unlike me, no one here is waiting to hear from you.

          • inquisitor

            I don’t think anyone here is denying this, just not necessarily for this particular encounter.

          • Kyoju Konton

            They acted responsibly. They acted the same way every CCW holder is trained. This isn’t Hollywood. They don’t fire warning shots. They also have no idea what mental state the guy was in not should they care. He was coming towards the cop with a weapon and refusing to stop. The cop isn’t paid to die so you’ll feel better. He has the same right to defense that you have.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Well – they may not have been doing so. But they are going to have to LEARN to do so in the future. Again – or just LEAVE the job. Those upset about such a change – have no business in the job in the first place.

          • AS1124

            Actually you are incorrect: They absolutely MUST know what mental state someone is in and BY LAW MUST avoid lethal force with people who are MI. If they don’t know how to they shouldn’t even be in contact with MI people. Period. Thats why CIT units are the model in this country. Obviously these morons didn’t get the memo.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Exactly what law says that a police officer has to be stabbed to death before he can defend himself? What law says that loony-toons have to be allowed to stab someone and that police cannot stop them?

          • Rail Car Fan

            “…the reality that the vast majority of police shootings involve mentally
            disturbed or confused people and officers who aren’t trained to deal
            with this situations at all.”

            As well as those of us who are Deaf, Ho/Hi, ie: Deaf, Hard of Hearing/Hearing Impaired”!

            Rail Car Fan

          • AS1124

            AMEN. See my post at the very top.

        • Difdi

          It comes of viewing TASERs not as defensive weapons but as pain compliance (aka torture) devices. When they actually feel threatened, they don’t reach for the compliance device.

        • Harry Bolzitch

          FUCK THAT! And fuck all you people who are so rabidly anti-police that your gut reaction is always to be against the police. The way some police act is bullshit but so is your attitude about all cops. It’s a shame that guy got shot but it was his own goddamn fault. There exists a highly charged atmosphere in the area and that guy decided he’d prove some point by holding a knife, IN AN OVERHAND GRIP (doesn’t mean overhead you dumbass, Carlos) and with a violent attitude approach the officers. Fuck that guy, he deserved to get shot.

          • Charlie Grapski

            NO overhand grip – NO three to four feet. THAT WAS ALL FICTION. (The video PROVES that).

          • Gregor

            So what? It also proves the man was advancing towards a person with a knife, despite being told numerous times to drop it. I would have shot him until my magazine was empty.
            I’m just as anti-corruption and anti-brutality as anyone on this forum. I even get rude with officers when they ask me their stupid little questions… “Where ya coming from?” “Where are you headed?” “Is this your current address? [on my license]” It angers them, but oh well. It’s non of their business and has nothing to do with their job.
            However, my attitude towards cops doesn’t erase my attitude about real criminals and the right of anyone to defend themselves from deadly force.

          • http://photographyisnotacrime.com/members/charlie-grapski/ Charlie Grapski

            Moving “in the direction of” is not a criminal offense. Regardless of the knife. His motions indicated no actual threat.

            But it is the prior actions of the officers drawing their guns as they got out of their vehicle and aiming it at him – before he moved anywhere – that is the real issue.

            I am not challenging your sincerity or your concerns. I am merely stating that there IS a problem in this incident CLEAR on that video.

          • AS1124

            yes you are so sure and smug. Let me know when a family member of yours has lost their mind and is clearly in their right mind. I am sure you won’t be wishing NON CIT police show up. Ignorant. SMH

        • http://politivajustice.com/ Politiva_com

          Got back in the car? Really? Maybe better they should drive away? Better still not show up? Better still not have cops? Please, this guy wanted to be shot and got his wish.

      • Keyser Soze

        This is exactly why people like you arent fit to be cops. You need to stay home and keep playing your video games.

        • inquisitor

          I certainly would never want to be a cop.
          And I don’t play video games.

      • William Pike

        i went to school to be a cop, back in the early 80s, one of the first things we were taught was how to disarm someone with a knife,, I remember my instructor saying that a knife was not an excuse to pull a gun,,, wish cops still thought that way

        • Jamesdiamond

          Be lucky you have never had to use that training then, if you did you would have been lucky to get away without some kind of possibly serious injury even if you did eventually manage to get the knife out of the attackers hands that training is heavily reliant on exact positioning which can not be determined in a real situation.

          • Al Verum

            If only you were as smart as you think you are – we could bow at your feet in awe. However, you keep on watching youtube videos about exact positioning and such until somebody believes your drivel.

          • Jamesdiamond

            If you want to bow at someone’s feet because they are smart enough to know that a person with a knife can seriously mess you up if not kill you no matter how much training you have had then you have pretty low standards.

          • AS1124

            lets hear this one: Are YOU a cop? Have you EVER been a cop or in the military?? YOu have NO idea what youre talking about

          • Jamesdiamond

            So only the cops and the military can ever receive self defense training?

          • Charlie Grapski

            Be ready for that training to become MANDATORY again – SOON.

            Because it is about to.

            Cowards ought not to be Cops.

          • Reddit_Guy

            What if the training included staying in the car instead of approaching the guy and escalating the situation?

          • Jamesdiamond

            That would work providing the suspect isn’t acting aggressive toward the public. But how long do they wait, how many officers would it take? Do they wait 30 minutes for some sort of negotiator or someone trained to talk to suspects, an hour, 2 hours? And if the person is wanting to commit suicide by cop which by appearances it seems was the case in this no amount of talking to him will work since as soon as he was approached he started his movements. Training is a very vital tool that should always evolve and be ongoing. but no amount of training in a controlled environment will prepare you for the unpredictable behavior of humans in every situation. There are just way too many hypotheticals to be covered to be trained and ready for anything.

          • Reddit_Guy

            The people walking right past him and didn’t seem concerned about his ‘aggression’ in the least. It’s a shame the police couldn’t be as calm as everyone else on the scene.

            How many cops / how much time does it take? I suppose that depends on how much a life is worth.

          • Jamesdiamond

            Were the people walking past him cops, which by all appearances it was the cops he was waiting for?
            Hypothetical 1
            I am a new cop me and my partner have been newly trained now to sit in my car and wait against a knife wielding suspect since hey he’s just standing there with a knife. Here is a possible report of what could happen in that situation.
            I arrived on scene, suspect pulled a knife out of his right pocket. Per new training procedures I and my partner reentered our vehicle to wait for the arrival of a trained negotiator. After approximately 30 minutes of watching the suspect it appeared that he became bored or just aggravated that we were not doing anything and he slashed a civilian who happened to walk by across the throat. At this time I and my partner exited the vehicle to confront the suspect. Suspect then moved toward us in an aggressive manner and refused all directions to halt and drop the knife.
            You see where that is going, now the police will be blamed because they didn’t do anything as soon as they arrived and now an innocent person was killed. As I said there are way too many hypotheticals to be covered by any amount of training. But this does not discount the need for continuous training and never will.
            No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Helmuth von Moltke.
            That quote is about battle but the same holds true with training.

          • AS1124

            the fact you don’t even know about CIT teams show you know NOTHING. You should just stop blathering away at this point.

          • Jamesdiamond

            So are you saying that a Crisis Intervention Team can fully prepare you for every possible situation that could ever happen?

          • Jamesdiamond

            Here is the problem with blindly assuming things about someone you don’t know, while you might be right a majority of the time, there will be times you are wrong.
            Here is just a brief history of me, the reason I believe in sites like this is because for 15 years I was a person that could have been highlighted in one of these stories, and not on the good end of it. Fortunately I woke up to it and changed my focus, I now work with abused/neglected children since there is more of a chance to prevent someone into growing up to be a criminal than it is to change a criminal after they have become one.
            You will never see me blindly assume something of anyone, no degrade myself into calling others names for the simple reason that I do not agree with them (not that you have called me any names just saying in general). I will no post on any topic unless I have at least a basic knowledge of the topic in question. Usually if I don’t have a basic knowledge in a topic and I want to know more I won’t guess my way. I will research and study the topic on my own.

          • AS1124

            not true. I think you have been watching too much FOX news.

        • Jamesdiamond

          The best defenses against a person armed with a knife are few. A better weapon (gun), space to move around and physically getting away (running away if needed). Any attempt to physically disarm a knife wielding person should be used as a very last resort, no matter how much training you have in a real situation and it is unlikely at best that you will walk away without being cut in most cases multiple times.

          • inquisitor

            Even a super-skilled knife fighter against and untrained knife wielder, the expert should expect to get cut.
            Best to run away or shoot with a gun.

          • Jamesdiamond

            I think it was you that mentioned the chalk test, I’ve done quite a few of those myself and the result would not have been pretty at all if it had been a real knife.

          • Al Verum

            Super-skilled? The 15 year old neighbor kid says things like that? Go figure.

          • inquisitor

            Your mother used the same term to describe me when I kept tapping her G-spot.

          • AS1124

            youre disgusting . But consistent

          • aaron

            of course, but that’s not the approach these cops should have used. They should have showed up, maybe had their guns out, but likely kept them stowed away and first attempted to talk the guy down, using normal, but firm speaking voices and reassuring language… any one that out of their mind isn’t going to respond well to aggression at all, but that’s all officer’s are trained to present…

          • inquisitor

            No…that wouldn’t be right at all. Seeing how the call had already stated the man was armed with a knife and just shoplifted. Danger to the public and shit like that.

        • Jamesdiamond

          Oh and good luck trying to defend against a karambit or similar type of knife.

        • Boko Hos

          That was before pussies took over the police departments. We have the “Trophy for last place” crowd in their these days. I’ve met some older cops that were just as stupid as the younger ones though. I guess it depends on where and how you were raised. You can’t teach bravery and or how to keep your composure. Relying on a cop to have good judgement is crazier than the person we just watched in this video.

        • Al Verum

          Cops want an excuse to shoot – it is kind of like getting your gang creds.

        • inquisitor

          Bullshit advice.
          It is unrealistic to think that you, without a knife, could ever win over someone using a knife, much less getting out of it unscathed.

          • aaron

            is it unrealistic to think that these cops, had they tried to calm him down and talk him down and get him help, rather than immediate present aggressively might have avoided using their weapons? If your kid has a psychotic break and wielding a knife in the kitchen you’d probably try talking that knife out of his hand before getting the shotgun right. I don’t see why we can’t expect the same of our police.

          • inquisitor

            You have no proof that this person would have ever calmed down, in fact, the video refutes it.
            Your hypothetical has nothing to do with this video.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            By God, I think you are right. I can think of all the calls I went on with people having a psychotic break like that, and the parent tried to take the knife away.

            Most of the parents survived. You would be amazed at what paramedics and ER docs can do with knife wounds…

          • AS1124

            my child was psychotic and I was able to talk her down. any parent knows with a psychotic kid you dont go towards them. Very very obvious to most of us who have travelled that road.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Good for you. I’ve talked suicidal people out of their room where they were barricaded with a shotgun and their name written on the shell. I went through CIT in 2008, and numerous other courses since the 1990s. I’ve also gone to calls where the psychotic stabbed their caregiver when the caregiver tried to intervene.

          • putaro

            How about the kids? How many survived their encounter with the police?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Most. You can’t always stop the bleeding or revive someone who hanged himself.

          • putaro

            Well, as a parent, I would take a knife wound or even death from my kids over having them killed. I’d hate myself if I called the cops and they showed up and blew my kid away in from of me.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            The officers don’t want either to happen.

            The reason that most of the people here are idiots is that they believe that most officers want to kill people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

          • putaro

            Most cops are people like anybody else. I’m certain that there’s a toll on the officers, probably a pretty big one along with the expense to the department. So, rather than just dismissing these kinds of incidents as “justified shooting, move along” it seems like it would be better for everyone to put some more thought into how to avoid killing people AND keep the police safe.

        • AS1124

          Thankyou William. EXACTLY

      • Al Verum

        Sure that is why they were moving toward him while shooting – because he was such a threat with that big knife. Oh, and they shot a couple of rounds at him as he lay on the ground because he still remained such a huge threat. Get over yourself and work your synapses.

        • inquisitor

          Thank you for highlighting the actions they executed with the utmost in correctness.

        • MagicStarER

          Yah, and then they are such courageous heroes that they rushed to hand-cuff a lifeless, dead corpse, to make sure it couldn’t “inflict bodily harm” on them. Stupid!!!

        • MagicStarER

          Which begs the question: Does eating too many doughnuts make people lose their marbles?

      • steveo

        Sheriff, come quick, it’s Mongo.

        Don’t shoot him, it’ll only make him mad.

      • hazy

        How would police in London who generally don’t carry firearms have handled the situation?

        • inquisitor

          Gotten stabbed.

        • Charlie Grapski

          Reasonably. As all police ought to. The standards of policing set by Robert Peel – that cowardly American cops have rejected – are about to be FORCED back upon the institution.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Different country and culture. The British officers I spoke with agreed that their techniques would not work in the U.S.

            Another, lesser known fact is that the Brits are increasing the use of armed officers. See http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28656324

      • AS1124

        “bull mangani silverback” definition: APE. You are a disgusting racist pig. People like you are what is wrong in this world.

      • dwwwww

        I think the problem is that the police lied in their report.

        They specifically reported the guy launched at them and got within close range. But in reality the guy posted no IMMEDIATE threat.

        I am fine if it comes to shooting when the guy became immediate threat, but in this case the police offers went for lethal force a little too eagerly.

      • Daguy8t4

        Ur foolish and should study more science shows whites come from blacks so that silver back is ur brother and u should wake up and live a happier life people who speak like u 99.9% are unsatisfied with their own life…take control Man U can still have a happy life ….I’m in my senior year of my physcology degree …I’ve learned a lot but most important I’ve learned it’s never too late to be happy ✌️

        • inquisitor

          Whites do not come from blacks, that bogus science has been debunked.

    • nrgins

      Actually, it looks more like 10 feet to me. If you take the height of the cop as 6 feet, and imagine him laying down towards the guy, it’s not much more than that.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Certainly not the THREE feet they told the Chief (I imagine in their report). That’s the little problem with cell phones – and video.

        YOU GET CAUGHT LYING.

        • nrgins

          Yes. But I’ve said this before: in high-adrenaline/high-stress situations, especially where there’s a potential for death, storing memories correctly isn’t one of the brain’s top priorities. So it’s common for people in high-stress situations to not remember details correctly — certainly not as much as someone who can sit back calmly and judge a situation. So these cops may be lying. Or it may have really seemed like 3 feet to them, in the heat of the moment. Either way, whether it was a lie or a mistake, we certainly agree that cameras are essential for getting to the truth of what really happened.

          • putaro

            The issue is well-known. It’s why eyewitness accounts are always suspect. Except for eyewitness reports from the police, who are always presumed to be correct and accurate no matter what.

          • nrgins

            Yes, exactly. Police are always right. Even when they’re caught blatantly lying so much. We, as people, crave simplicity. So, when it comes to sorting through complex accounts of a situation, it’s just simpler to believe that the authority figure can always be trusted. It’s how sheep are led over a cliff.

            As for this phenomenon, yes, it’s well known; but not universally known. That’s why so many people believe that cops are lying when their accounts are wrong. I give them a little slack if it’s a high-stress situation and say they MIGHT not be lying; it could be the circumstances. But, of course, there’s a good chance they’re lying as well.

            Shoot, for an organization that shoots unarmed or barely armed people and steals money from innocent families on the highway, telling a little white lie to “put the bad guy away” (as they see it) is nothing to them!

    • Boko Hos

      Unfortunately, you don’t need to discuss any of these because once you give any person the green light to kill at the slightest provocation, you immediately remove the “common sense” , “moral” and “ethical” decisions from their brain. Qualified Immunity and the police unions are the disease and getting rid of them is the cure. Until all decisions to use deadly force are reviewed holistically, and not just the last 2 seconds of an encounter, you really can’t have an honest discussion about these matters. Retards that put themselves and other people in harms way aren’t qualified to wear a uniform, but that constitutes about 99 percent of those that do.

    • steveo

      In America, we kill the mentally ill, it’s easier to put the handcuffs on. Look, Hiltler used the T2 program, he herded all the mentally ill into vans and gased them to death, at least, our brave men in blue only shoot a few down in the street.

      • AS1124

        FINALLY a person with some serious brains. Thankyou!!

    • John Q. Public

      Michigan Police Force Ditching Army Vehicle That Was Mocked by HBO Comedian . . .

      Citing exorbitant upkeep costs and no real need, the police in Saginaw, Michigan are returning their MRAP to the Pentagon.

      Funny though, how this comes only days after John Oliver made a laughing stock out of them for having it in the first place . . .

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/19/michigan-police-force-ditching-army-vehicle-that-was-mocked-by-hbo-comedian

      – – – –

      Relevant on many levels.

  • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

    It was a justified shooting. As Carlos said, he was about 15 feet from an officer. Anything within 21 feet is considered dangerously close, where a person with a knife can cover the distance and stab you before you can react.

    Here, clearly the man is moving in a manner to approach the officers, armed with a knife, and refusing to drop it.

    It may very well be suicide by cop based on some of the comments he was initially making and the fact that he did not leave the scene (and that he put the drinks on the ground).

    Contrary to what Difster states below, he was an immediate threat and he was employing deadly force. You don’t address deadly force with a taser or by singing kumbyla.

    • http://photographyisnotacrime.com/members/charlie-grapski/ Charlie Grapski

      That distance is not the key fact. The key fact – is not to pigeonhole whether a check box can be checked off [IF X, THEN JUSTIFIED].

      It was NOT justified – because it was NOT NECESSARY.

      As I said:

      1) He was not committing a crime;
      2) He was not threatening persons on the street;
      3) The officers arrived – immediately exited their vehicle with guns drawn – and aimed them at him.

      There was NO BASIS for (3) – and this is NOT what should be constitutive of a “justified” shooting.

      The man was mentally ill. You don’t send armed cops eager to draw and fire – to “serve and protect” the mentally ill (particularly when they are posing no actual threat to anyone at the time).

    • psodvcam

      It was justifiable to a cowardly girly man in uniform. Just the interaction with the crowd you can see the cops see their citizens of color as subhuman. Cops arrived to kill period, no attempts to talk, just fire like they were scared, get another job.

      • inquisitor

        They did talk.
        They said repeatedly—put down the knife.

        • Charlie Grapski

          To a mentally ill man – telling them to shoot him.

          He was mentally ill. He had no judgment.

          They were not (presumed). But they were not rationally using sound judgment. Because that would have said to them – if we shout “STOP” “PUT DOWN THE KNIFE” – we ought to KNOW he is not going to – and is LIKELY to do EXACTLY what he did.

          THEY CAUSE HIS RE-ACTION – by their INAPPROPRIATE and UNREASONABLE initial ACTIONS.

          • inquisitor

            Cops had no knowledge of his being mentally ill.

            And a mentally ill man can slash and gash someone to death just the same, perhaps even better than a sane man.

            You have the mental room to debate it right now because I am not rushing up to you aggressively with a knife.

          • Al Verum

            Today, in you high school class think about the ridiculous things you posted when you should have been studying for an exam or something.

          • inquisitor

            You need medication.

          • steveo

            This poster (from around 1938) reads: “60,000 Reichsmark is what this person suffering from a hereditary defect costs the People’s community during his lifetime. Fellow citizen, that is your money too. Read ‘[A] New People’, the monthly magazine of theBureau for Race Politics of the NSDAP.”

            These leos just saved the State thousands and thousands of $.

          • Harry Bolzitch

            Your point is spot on. But people like Charlie will never get it until someone in their own family is killed or otherwise harmed by a lunatic like this guy. Until then it’s always, like Obama says, that we should seek understanding and talk it out. Hasn’t worked out for Obama at all and it certainly wouldn’t have worked for these two cops either.

          • AS1124

            and people like you who have NO idea about MI people will never get it: These people are less likely statistically to actually harm people while they are having an episode than “normal” criminals who have their wits about them and threaten people. Go look it up.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Yeah, and I can tell that you have NO idea about police work.

            Yup, my partner and I never had to fight a psycho who was trying to seriously hurt us and others.

          • aaron

            I don';t think it’s unreasonable to expect that cops at least receive training for these kinds of circumstances. at the moment, no police deparment officers it and SURPRISE! an enormous number of police shootings result in the deaths of mentally ill people, often inside their own homes. these cops obviously only received escalation approach training, but of course its also a race and class problem. had this been a wealthy looking white man in a fine suit carrying a knife, it might very well have ended the same way, sure, but I’m just going to guess that the officers would have been less afraid of him and therefore more likely to feel like they didn’t need to use their guns.

          • inquisitor

            Naw…it isn’t like that.

          • AS1124
          • AS1124

            yes they did. The call stated he was talking to himself and acting erratically. That is an OBVIOUS sign of schizophrenia. This was incompetence , negligence and murder.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            So what? They are supposed to get stabbed while you sing kumbyla with the loony-toon?

          • pete

            Charlie, love your stuff. I respectfully disagree on this though. Mentally ill people, as you say, have no judgement. One with a knife might just start slashing. I agree, the cops could have taken a different course of action. But the one they chose, was legal and justified IMHO. We all have the right of self defense. And when a knife is out, someone may die.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            HE HAD A KNIFE AND CHARGED THE OFFICERS.

            End of story.

          • Boko Hos

            The officers had the choice to no confront him in that manner and decided to do so anyway. They’re morons and this video is a perfect example of why they need to refine the selection process.

          • Nemo

            If walking towards the officers is “charging”, then cops are legally justified in shooting anyone approaching them. All they have to do is say that they were in “fear” for their lives afterwards.

            Your cop side is speaking here, not your lawyer side, ECLS. Tray thinking in terms of how you would represent the family of the deceased, rather than the defense attorney for the cops who killed an innocent (if the cops get “innocent until proven guilty”, then so does this guy – and the victim in this case killed no one) man.

            Go ahead and keep correcting silly legal theories, ELCS, but please stop acting as the defense attorney for cops who kill and abuse people, OK?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            I wouldn’t represent them. There is no point in taking on a losing case.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Talk about losing cases…

            You’re the only losing case around here!

            Rail Car Fan

          • Harry Bolzitch

            “then cops are legally justified in shooting anyone” What a completely ridiculous premise. Way to try and twist the story by equating someone just normally walking up to a police officer to some crazy, knife-wielding asshole walking up in an aggressive manner.

          • thehossdriver .

            He stopped being ‘innocent’ when he failed to comply with lawful orders, resisted arrest, pulled a knife, and proceeded as an aggressor with a deadly weapon…

          • Al Verum

            More nonsense from someone who is neither a COP or a LAWYER.

          • jackassletters

            Actually it’s not the end. That’s the problem I have with this story. We can argue about whether or not they should have shot him, but we can agree the report after should accurately reflect what happened, correct?

          • aron

            pretty sure he’s just walking towards them. but if feel better about it using ‘charged’ that’s cool I guess

          • Rail Car Fan

            YOU need to look at the video again. He did not “CHARGE” the officers! The video shows him slowly walking (NOT CHARGING) toward the cops… and on top of that, he didn’t lunge toward them (with a upraised arm) as the cops so stated.

            As I have said before, ex-“COP”, why is it I didn’t expect a response (other than what you just gave), from you?

            Rail Car Fan

          • Boko Hos

            You can’t debate with most of the people on here because they’re all just dying to suck a cop’s dick. Cops aren’t brave or well trained and certainly aren’t tested for good judgement.

          • Kyoju Konton

            A mentally ill man can kill you just as dead.

        • putaro

          Twenty-one seconds. The cops pull up at 1:22 on the video and at 1:43 they’ve finished firing.

          • inquisitor

            Good, for once, to finally see my tax dollars paying for efficient and good service.

          • http://Www.fuckthegovernment.info F.T.G.

            Wow. I’m not often speechless.

          • inquisitor

            And you would be speechless if I rushed you with a knife.
            In most random attacks, even without a weapon, the target or victim usually psychologically freezes…even with training.
            Which is why when lethality is part of the offense, you must act decisively, quickly and with finality…or you are dead…as judgment and timing are already naturally impaired.
            And once you are cut with a knife and you see your arm butterflied open, you will go into shock and then just get cut up even more.

          • Keyser Soze

            From what youve described, i think it would be really cool to watch someone cut you up. Hope it happens soon.

          • inquisitor

            Thank for sharing with us all your mental illness.

          • Al Verum

            You’re the one taking verbal bullets for your hero murdering cops.

          • inquisitor

            I am not defending the shooters because they are cops.
            Anyone in that position would have been justified shooting him.

          • William Pike

            if you rushed me with a knife, i’d take it away from you and make you eat it.

          • inquisitor

            The odds of an unarmed person disarming a motivated knife attacker without getting incapacitated by severe injury or killed…about 0.
            You have had too much to drink today.

          • Nemo

            “About 0″? The odds of getting through such an encounter uninjured are about that, but incapacitated? You’re making stuff up. Mike Brown, by all accounts, was alive after at least 4 gunshot wounds from a supposed professional. “Motivated” does not equal “trained”. Ask an expert. It is /hard/ to kill someone with a knife, in a straight-up encounter.

            You are trying to assert that knives are more lethal than guns. Try again.

          • inquisitor

            Never said that knives were more lethal that guns.

          • Al Verum

            Yeah he was really motivated alright. The citizens surrounding him gave him space, but they didn’t have the blood thirst to kill.

          • Al Verum

            Too many youtube videos for you. Now here is a dose of reality – they murdered a man in cold blood, on video and you defend it – that makes you an accomplice after the fact IMO.

          • Al Verum

            I know your mommy, daddy or wifey (wifey?) must be a cop.

          • inquisitor

            This is the same advice I would give anyone, I am not partial to police in this regard.

          • Al Verum

            2 shots while the man is on the ground – wow!

        • aaron

          They yelled put down the knife, to someone in his state, aggressive language and posture doesn’t result in submission or compliance, just escalation. Cops we’re too scared to begin with to think clearly enough to use a calm, but firm tone of voice.

          • inquisitor

            Naw…it wasn’t like that at all.

        • AS1124

          youre such a tool. SMH