Home / Cell Phone Video Contradicts Police Report on St. Louis Shooting Death (updated)

Cell Phone Video Contradicts Police Report on St. Louis Shooting Death (updated)

St. Louis police claimed they had to shoot a man to death because they were in fear for their lives after he lunged at them with a knife in “an overhand grip.”

But then a cell phone video emerged contradicting that report, potentially causing tensions to run even higher than they already are in the area that’s been mired by protests and riots for more than ten days now after another cop shot another black man to death.

What’s even more interesting is that they were the ones to release the video, which indicates they probably confiscated the man’s phone, but no details on that yet.

The video shows a man pacing back and forth on a sidewalk as another man records and narrates, but of course, not having the sense to turn the phone sideways.

The man is apparently holding a knife but that is not very evident from what I’ve seen, but he also has one hand in his pocket at times.

Two cops pull up in one vehicle, step out of the car and order him to drop the knife. The man steps up on a ledge, then steps off as if to make his way towards them, which is when they shot him several times.

The entire exchange last 15 seconds.

According to the initial report, police claimed the man had lunged at them, coming within three feet of them, so they had to kill him because, after all, they have the expectation to go home at night – which usually means to hell with anybody’s else expectation to go home at night.

Police say the man took items from the Six Star Market, twice. The second time police were called by the store owner, and a city alderwoman who was watching this unfold. A witness says, “The store owner and the alderwoman said the suspect was armed with a knife, acting erratically, pacing back and forth in the street talking to himself.”

When police arrived, they say the man charged the officers with the knife more than once. The second time they opened fire. Witnesses report him saying, “Kill me.”

The fast growing crowd had one question: What happened to the tasers?!

“So if you`re the family of a police officer and someone approaches you within three feet with a knife, I think you have the right to defend yourself and protect yourself. So I think it certainly is reasonable that an officer has an expectation to go home at the end of the night.” said St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson.

But the video shows he had his arms at his sides and he was probably about 15 feet from the officers when they fired.

The man, Kajieme Powell, 25, was most likely suffering from mental health issues, judging by his behavior.

And we all know that police are the last ones to call in these situations because they will only escalate the situation.

So perhaps we just need to train ourselves in how to handle these situations in case a friend or family member begins demonstrating erratic behavior.

UPDATE: A news report stating that the man who recorded the video turned it over to his attorney, who in turn, turned it over to police, who then released it to the media.

Family members also said he did not have a history of mental illness.

About Carlos Miller

Carlos Miller is founder and publisher of Photography is Not a Crime, which began as a one-man blog in 2007 to document his trial after he was arrested for photographing police during a journalistic assignment. He is also the author of The Citizen Journalist's Photography Handbook, which can be purchased through Amazon.
  • Difster

    He was at least 25 feet from them when they opened fire and posed NO immediate threat. And people wonder why I despise coproaches.

    Not only did they execute this man they endangered whoever was in the homes behind him.

    Let’s discuss options to deadly force here:
    1) Tasers
    2) Take cover behind vehicles while trying to talk the man down.
    3) Use a bean bag shotgun to disable him.

    • inquisitor

      I would say 12 and no more than 15 feet away from the officer when first shot fired.

      If he was still carrying a knife after being told to drop it several times while continuing to close the distance with the officers…then he was an immediate threat.
      With that said, I would not have relied upon a taser, nor a bean bag shotgun, nor a dialogue if I were an officer in this instance.
      I would have done exactly the same and put that bull mangani silverback down.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Well – no – he was not “Actually” an “immediate threat” – he was only a check box immediate threat (If knife AND IF within X feet = Immediate Threat).

        Because the police had AN OPTION.

        They did NOT HAVE TO shoot (and to kill) – to get out of harms way. THEY CHOSE the shooting option.

        They COULD have gotten back in the car and closed the door. And then there would have been NO THREAT (and no dead man on the street).

        As for your last sentence – that is why Americans need to stand up, speak out, and KEEP people with your viewpoint and attitude OUT OF police forces.

        • inquisitor

          Thanks for your opinion…but I say bullshit.
          Sorry Charlie.
          This was a clean kill.
          Wash this one off the sidewalk with a hose.

          • Rusty Gunn

            You are just flat out full of schitt.

          • Keyser Soze

            If only your mother had washed out her vagina with a hose before she was inseminated

          • inquisitor

            There are medications that fix that for you.

          • jackassletters

            I think you mean after.

          • Al Verum

            Your a cop or you receive an allowance from one.

          • inquisitor

            No. And if you review my history of posting here you will find I do not support the police…with one or two exceptions regarding stories here at the most…and this is one of those two.

          • Al Verum

            This is so obvious that the cops murdered this guy. You are trying to get others to not believe what they are seeing in the video. I think it is because you are some self credited expert on gun and knife fights.

          • Harry Bolzitch

            What the fuck did YOU see in this video, genius? Did you see a guy, pissed off and ranting, holding a knife, and, against completely lawful orders given by two police officers with weapons drawn, refuse to stop? Because that’s what most people saw. Maybe I should be watching these videos through the same bleeding heart liberal glasses as the rest of you.

          • AS1124

            what this really displays is the utter ignorance and lack of compassion for our mentally ill. Shame on YOU

          • inquisitor

            I don’t think that you think at all.

          • Blanche Starbong

            You are going to get what you deserve. A police state, jackazz.

          • Manny

            Anybody would of got short in the situation come on not race related anybody woulda got it

          • Rail Car Fan

            Some people will stand behind the police no matter what wrong they do!

            Rail Car Fan

          • pwpg06

            you are a A*hole.. go back to your cave ans stay there

        • Kyoju Konton

          I would have taken the shot. Someone is armed, inside 7 yards, and coming towards me; I’m the one going home. Had the shooter not been wearing a uniform, no one would question it. I expect the police to be held to the same standards I am. That means giving them the same right to defend themselves.

          • Aaron

            Really? I expect the police to be held to higher standards than we are. They are paid to put their lives on the line and to be responsible with their firearms, This is about training and attitude, I think, and the reality that the vast majority of police shootings involve mentally disturbed or confused people and officers who aren’t trained to deal with this situations at all. Mostly I’m sickened here by the obvious pleasure some folks here are taking in another person’s death, as though they were the ones pulling the trigger. I don’t understand the satisfaction you feel. I don’t deny that this man made a choice, but we have no idea what state he was in making that choice, and that doesn’t change that the people whom I’m supposed to trust to carry loaded GUNS around all day long aren’t people held to a high of standard of responsibility for their use.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Cops aren’t paid to get stabbed because of your mistaken views.

          • GuamTippedOver

            I’m not sure WHAT they are paid for. At least we all can agree it is definitely not to “protect and serve”. Legally or otherwise.

          • Charlie Grapski

            They are not mistaken views. They are consistent with the HISTORICAL views and PRINCIPLES of this nation.

            The COWARDS among cops (which did not use to be the majority) changed the “practices” and “norms” – without the public knowing.

            THEY NOW KNOW. And those policies and practices – are going into the DUST BIN of history (with their authoritarian/totalitarian predecessors) – where they BELONG.

            Hopefully those COWARDS who think policing is without risk and should be – will LEAVE the job. The system needs a THOROUGH CLEANSING and a RESTART.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            They are MISTAKEN views of an ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT academic who is OUT OF TOUCH with REALITY and the mood of the general PUBLIC.

            Who is mistaken about the HISTORY of police in AMERICA, and has a bias against authority based on his own past errors.

            There ya go, complete with your theatrical use of ALL-CAPS.

          • AS1124

            I assume you have read Rise of the Military Cop? Please do if you haven’t . Well cited and explains what has happened with our police over the past 50 years. Disturbing.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Heidi, before you assume that you know what I believe, try looking at my blog. Yes, I’m aware of the militarization of police, I lived it as it was happening. That has nothing to do with Charlie’s anti-police bias.

          • AS1124

            and as you and I know, before the 19th C there WERE no police depts. Thank God.

          • smooth

            “by any other name is still a”

            paid night watch members in Boston since 1701 that “hook” criminals. I get that you’re arguing semantics but are you serious?

          • AS1124

            and theyre not paid by MY tax dollars to MURDER mentally ill people who this society threw out under Reagan in the 80’s . Sickening.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Well, since it wasn’t MURDER (is that enough emphasis for you?), then your tax dollars didn’t pay for the officers who did their job.

            Try to read the entire thread before you repeat what’s already been said. Unlike me, no one here is waiting to hear from you.

          • inquisitor

            I don’t think anyone here is denying this, just not necessarily for this particular encounter.

          • Kyoju Konton

            They acted responsibly. They acted the same way every CCW holder is trained. This isn’t Hollywood. They don’t fire warning shots. They also have no idea what mental state the guy was in not should they care. He was coming towards the cop with a weapon and refusing to stop. The cop isn’t paid to die so you’ll feel better. He has the same right to defense that you have.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Well – they may not have been doing so. But they are going to have to LEARN to do so in the future. Again – or just LEAVE the job. Those upset about such a change – have no business in the job in the first place.

          • AS1124

            Actually you are incorrect: They absolutely MUST know what mental state someone is in and BY LAW MUST avoid lethal force with people who are MI. If they don’t know how to they shouldn’t even be in contact with MI people. Period. Thats why CIT units are the model in this country. Obviously these morons didn’t get the memo.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Exactly what law says that a police officer has to be stabbed to death before he can defend himself? What law says that loony-toons have to be allowed to stab someone and that police cannot stop them?

          • Rail Car Fan

            “…the reality that the vast majority of police shootings involve mentally
            disturbed or confused people and officers who aren’t trained to deal
            with this situations at all.”

            As well as those of us who are Deaf, Ho/Hi, ie: Deaf, Hard of Hearing/Hearing Impaired”!

            Rail Car Fan

          • AS1124

            AMEN. See my post at the very top.

        • Difdi

          It comes of viewing TASERs not as defensive weapons but as pain compliance (aka torture) devices. When they actually feel threatened, they don’t reach for the compliance device.

        • Harry Bolzitch

          FUCK THAT! And fuck all you people who are so rabidly anti-police that your gut reaction is always to be against the police. The way some police act is bullshit but so is your attitude about all cops. It’s a shame that guy got shot but it was his own goddamn fault. There exists a highly charged atmosphere in the area and that guy decided he’d prove some point by holding a knife, IN AN OVERHAND GRIP (doesn’t mean overhead you dumbass, Carlos) and with a violent attitude approach the officers. Fuck that guy, he deserved to get shot.

          • Charlie Grapski

            NO overhand grip – NO three to four feet. THAT WAS ALL FICTION. (The video PROVES that).

          • Gregor

            So what? It also proves the man was advancing towards a person with a knife, despite being told numerous times to drop it. I would have shot him until my magazine was empty.
            I’m just as anti-corruption and anti-brutality as anyone on this forum. I even get rude with officers when they ask me their stupid little questions… “Where ya coming from?” “Where are you headed?” “Is this your current address? [on my license]” It angers them, but oh well. It’s non of their business and has nothing to do with their job.
            However, my attitude towards cops doesn’t erase my attitude about real criminals and the right of anyone to defend themselves from deadly force.

          • AS1124

            yes you are so sure and smug. Let me know when a family member of yours has lost their mind and is clearly in their right mind. I am sure you won’t be wishing NON CIT police show up. Ignorant. SMH

        • http://politivajustice.com/ Politiva_com

          Got back in the car? Really? Maybe better they should drive away? Better still not show up? Better still not have cops? Please, this guy wanted to be shot and got his wish.

      • Keyser Soze

        This is exactly why people like you arent fit to be cops. You need to stay home and keep playing your video games.

        • inquisitor

          I certainly would never want to be a cop.
          And I don’t play video games.

      • William Pike

        i went to school to be a cop, back in the early 80s, one of the first things we were taught was how to disarm someone with a knife,, I remember my instructor saying that a knife was not an excuse to pull a gun,,, wish cops still thought that way

        • Jamesdiamond

          Be lucky you have never had to use that training then, if you did you would have been lucky to get away without some kind of possibly serious injury even if you did eventually manage to get the knife out of the attackers hands that training is heavily reliant on exact positioning which can not be determined in a real situation.

          But those training techniques do work very well on tv and in movies though.

          • Al Verum

            If only you were as smart as you think you are – we could bow at your feet in awe. However, you keep on watching youtube videos about exact positioning and such until somebody believes your drivel.

          • Jamesdiamond

            If you want to bow at someone’s feet because they are smart enough to know that a person with a knife can seriously mess you up if not kill you no matter how much training you have had then you have pretty low standards.

          • AS1124

            lets hear this one: Are YOU a cop? Have you EVER been a cop or in the military?? YOu have NO idea what youre talking about

          • Jamesdiamond

            So only the cops and the military can ever receive self defense training?

          • Charlie Grapski

            Be ready for that training to become MANDATORY again – SOON.

            Because it is about to.

            Cowards ought not to be Cops.

          • Reddit_Guy

            What if the training included staying in the car instead of approaching the guy and escalating the situation?

          • Jamesdiamond

            That would work providing the suspect isn’t acting aggressive toward the public. But how long do they wait, how many officers would it take? Do they wait 30 minutes for some sort of negotiator or someone trained to talk to suspects, an hour, 2 hours? And if the person is wanting to commit suicide by cop which by appearances it seems was the case in this no amount of talking to him will work since as soon as he was approached he started his movements. Training is a very vital tool that should always evolve and be ongoing. but no amount of training in a controlled environment will prepare you for the unpredictable behavior of humans in every situation. There are just way too many hypotheticals to be covered to be trained and ready for anything.

          • Reddit_Guy

            The people walking right past him and didn’t seem concerned about his ‘aggression’ in the least. It’s a shame the police couldn’t be as calm as everyone else on the scene.

            How many cops / how much time does it take? I suppose that depends on how much a life is worth.

          • Jamesdiamond

            Were the people walking past him cops, which by all appearances it was the cops he was waiting for?
            Hypothetical 1
            I am a new cop me and my partner have been newly trained now to sit in my car and wait against a knife wielding suspect since hey he’s just standing there with a knife. Here is a possible report of what could happen in that situation.
            I arrived on scene, suspect pulled a knife out of his right pocket. Per new training procedures I and my partner reentered our vehicle to wait for the arrival of a trained negotiator. After approximately 30 minutes of watching the suspect it appeared that he became bored or just aggravated that we were not doing anything and he slashed a civilian who happened to walk by across the throat. At this time I and my partner exited the vehicle to confront the suspect. Suspect then moved toward us in an aggressive manner and refused all directions to halt and drop the knife.
            You see where that is going, now the police will be blamed because they didn’t do anything as soon as they arrived and now an innocent person was killed. As I said there are way too many hypotheticals to be covered by any amount of training. But this does not discount the need for continuous training and never will.
            No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Helmuth von Moltke.
            That quote is about battle but the same holds true with training.

          • AS1124

            the fact you don’t even know about CIT teams show you know NOTHING. You should just stop blathering away at this point.

          • Jamesdiamond

            So are you saying that a Crisis Intervention Team can fully prepare you for every possible situation that could ever happen?

          • Jamesdiamond

            Here is the problem with blindly assuming things about someone you don’t know, while you might be right a majority of the time, there will be times you are wrong.
            Here is just a brief history of me, the reason I believe in sites like this is because for 15 years I was a person that could have been highlighted in one of these stories, and not on the good end of it. Fortunately I woke up to it and changed my focus, I now work with abused/neglected children since there is more of a chance to prevent someone into growing up to be a criminal than it is to change a criminal after they have become one.
            You will never see me blindly assume something of anyone, no degrade myself into calling others names for the simple reason that I do not agree with them (not that you have called me any names just saying in general). I will no post on any topic unless I have at least a basic knowledge of the topic in question. Usually if I don’t have a basic knowledge in a topic and I want to know more I won’t guess my way. I will research and study the topic on my own.

          • AS1124

            not true. I think you have been watching too much FOX news.

        • Jamesdiamond

          The best defenses against a person armed with a knife are few. A better weapon (gun), space to move around and physically getting away (running away if needed). Any attempt to physically disarm a knife wielding person should be used as a very last resort, no matter how much training you have in a real situation and it is unlikely at best that you will walk away without being cut in most cases multiple times.

          • inquisitor

            Even a super-skilled knife fighter against and untrained knife wielder, the expert should expect to get cut.
            Best to run away or shoot with a gun.

          • Jamesdiamond

            I think it was you that mentioned the chalk test, I’ve done quite a few of those myself and the result would not have been pretty at all if it had been a real knife.

          • Al Verum

            Super-skilled? The 15 year old neighbor kid says things like that? Go figure.

          • inquisitor

            Your mother used the same term to describe me when I kept tapping her G-spot.

          • AS1124

            youre disgusting . But consistent

          • aaron

            of course, but that’s not the approach these cops should have used. They should have showed up, maybe had their guns out, but likely kept them stowed away and first attempted to talk the guy down, using normal, but firm speaking voices and reassuring language… any one that out of their mind isn’t going to respond well to aggression at all, but that’s all officer’s are trained to present…

          • inquisitor

            No…that wouldn’t be right at all. Seeing how the call had already stated the man was armed with a knife and just shoplifted. Danger to the public and shit like that.

        • Jamesdiamond

          Oh and good luck trying to defend against a karambit or similar type of knife.

        • Boko Hos

          That was before pussies took over the police departments. We have the “Trophy for last place” crowd in there these days. I’ve met some older cops that were just as stupid as the younger ones though. I guess it depends on where and how you were raised. You can’t teach bravery and or how to keep your composure. Relying on a cop to have good judgement is crazier than the person we just watched in this video.

        • Al Verum

          Cops want an excuse to shoot – it is kind of like getting your gang creds.

        • inquisitor

          Bullshit advice.
          It is unrealistic to think that you, without a knife, could ever win over someone using a knife, much less getting out of it unscathed.

          • aaron

            is it unrealistic to think that these cops, had they tried to calm him down and talk him down and get him help, rather than immediate present aggressively might have avoided using their weapons? If your kid has a psychotic break and wielding a knife in the kitchen you’d probably try talking that knife out of his hand before getting the shotgun right. I don’t see why we can’t expect the same of our police.

          • inquisitor

            You have no proof that this person would have ever calmed down, in fact, the video refutes it.
            Your hypothetical has nothing to do with this video.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            By God, I think you are right. I can think of all the calls I went on with people having a psychotic break like that, and the parent tried to take the knife away.

            Most of the parents survived. You would be amazed at what paramedics and ER docs can do with knife wounds…

          • AS1124

            my child was psychotic and I was able to talk her down. any parent knows with a psychotic kid you dont go towards them. Very very obvious to most of us who have travelled that road.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Good for you. I’ve talked suicidal people out of their room where they were barricaded with a shotgun and their name written on the shell. I went through CIT in 2008, and numerous other courses since the 1990s. I’ve also gone to calls where the psychotic stabbed their caregiver when the caregiver tried to intervene.

          • putaro

            How about the kids? How many survived their encounter with the police?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Most. You can’t always stop the bleeding or revive someone who hanged himself.

          • putaro

            Well, as a parent, I would take a knife wound or even death from my kids over having them killed. I’d hate myself if I called the cops and they showed up and blew my kid away in from of me.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            The officers don’t want either to happen.

            The reason that most of the people here are idiots is that they believe that most officers want to kill people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

          • putaro

            Most cops are people like anybody else. I’m certain that there’s a toll on the officers, probably a pretty big one along with the expense to the department. So, rather than just dismissing these kinds of incidents as “justified shooting, move along” it seems like it would be better for everyone to put some more thought into how to avoid killing people AND keep the police safe.

        • AS1124

          Thankyou William. EXACTLY

      • Al Verum

        Sure that is why they were moving toward him while shooting – because he was such a threat with that big knife. Oh, and they shot a couple of rounds at him as he lay on the ground because he still remained such a huge threat. Get over yourself and work your synapses.

        • inquisitor

          Thank you for highlighting the actions they executed with the utmost in correctness.

        • MagicStarER

          Yah, and then they are such courageous heroes that they rushed to hand-cuff a lifeless, dead corpse, to make sure it couldn’t “inflict bodily harm” on them. Stupid!!!

        • MagicStarER

          Which begs the question: Does eating too many doughnuts make people lose their marbles?

      • steveo

        Sheriff, come quick, it’s Mongo.

        Don’t shoot him, it’ll only make him mad.

      • hazy

        How would police in London who generally don’t carry firearms have handled the situation?

        • inquisitor

          Gotten stabbed.

        • Charlie Grapski

          Reasonably. As all police ought to. The standards of policing set by Robert Peel – that cowardly American cops have rejected – are about to be FORCED back upon the institution.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Different country and culture. The British officers I spoke with agreed that their techniques would not work in the U.S.

            Another, lesser known fact is that the Brits are increasing the use of armed officers. See http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28656324

      • AS1124

        “bull mangani silverback” definition: APE. You are a disgusting racist pig. People like you are what is wrong in this world.

      • dwwwww

        I think the problem is that the police lied in their report.

        They specifically reported the guy launched at them and got within close range. But in reality the guy posted no IMMEDIATE threat.

        I am fine if it comes to shooting when the guy became immediate threat, but in this case the police offers went for lethal force a little too eagerly.

      • Daguy8t4

        Ur foolish and should study more science shows whites come from blacks so that silver back is ur brother and u should wake up and live a happier life people who speak like u 99.9% are unsatisfied with their own life…take control Man U can still have a happy life ….I’m in my senior year of my physcology degree …I’ve learned a lot but most important I’ve learned it’s never too late to be happy ✌️

        • inquisitor

          Whites do not come from blacks, that bogus science has been debunked.

    • nrgins

      Actually, it looks more like 10 feet to me. If you take the height of the cop as 6 feet, and imagine him laying down towards the guy, it’s not much more than that.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Certainly not the THREE feet they told the Chief (I imagine in their report). That’s the little problem with cell phones – and video.

        YOU GET CAUGHT LYING.

        • nrgins

          Yes. But I’ve said this before: in high-adrenaline/high-stress situations, especially where there’s a potential for death, storing memories correctly isn’t one of the brain’s top priorities. So it’s common for people in high-stress situations to not remember details correctly — certainly not as much as someone who can sit back calmly and judge a situation. So these cops may be lying. Or it may have really seemed like 3 feet to them, in the heat of the moment. Either way, whether it was a lie or a mistake, we certainly agree that cameras are essential for getting to the truth of what really happened.

          • putaro

            The issue is well-known. It’s why eyewitness accounts are always suspect. Except for eyewitness reports from the police, who are always presumed to be correct and accurate no matter what.

          • nrgins

            Yes, exactly. Police are always right. Even when they’re caught blatantly lying so much. We, as people, crave simplicity. So, when it comes to sorting through complex accounts of a situation, it’s just simpler to believe that the authority figure can always be trusted. It’s how sheep are led over a cliff.

            As for this phenomenon, yes, it’s well known; but not universally known. That’s why so many people believe that cops are lying when their accounts are wrong. I give them a little slack if it’s a high-stress situation and say they MIGHT not be lying; it could be the circumstances. But, of course, there’s a good chance they’re lying as well.

            Shoot, for an organization that shoots unarmed or barely armed people and steals money from innocent families on the highway, telling a little white lie to “put the bad guy away” (as they see it) is nothing to them!

    • Boko Hos

      Unfortunately, you don’t need to discuss any of these because once you give any person the green light to kill at the slightest provocation, you immediately remove the “common sense” , “moral” and “ethical” decisions from their brain. Qualified Immunity and the police unions are the disease and getting rid of them is the cure. Until all decisions to use deadly force are reviewed holistically, and not just the last 2 seconds of an encounter, you really can’t have an honest discussion about these matters. Retards that put themselves and other people in harms way aren’t qualified to wear a uniform, but that constitutes about 99 percent of those that do.

    • steveo

      In America, we kill the mentally ill, it’s easier to put the handcuffs on. Look, Hiltler used the Action T4 program, he herded all the mentally ill into vans and gased them to death with the carbon monoxcide from the engine, at least, our brave men in blue only shoot a few down in the street.

      • AS1124

        FINALLY a person with some serious brains. Thankyou!!

    • John Q. Public

      Michigan Police Force Ditching Army Vehicle That Was Mocked by HBO Comedian . . .

      Citing exorbitant upkeep costs and no real need, the police in Saginaw, Michigan are returning their MRAP to the Pentagon.

      Funny though, how this comes only days after John Oliver made a laughing stock out of them for having it in the first place . . .

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/19/michigan-police-force-ditching-army-vehicle-that-was-mocked-by-hbo-comedian

      – – – –

      Relevant on many levels.

  • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

    It was a justified shooting. As Carlos said, he was about 15 feet from an officer. Anything within 21 feet is considered dangerously close, where a person with a knife can cover the distance and stab you before you can react.

    Here, clearly the man is moving in a manner to approach the officers, armed with a knife, and refusing to drop it.

    It may very well be suicide by cop based on some of the comments he was initially making and the fact that he did not leave the scene (and that he put the drinks on the ground).

    Contrary to what Difster states below, he was an immediate threat and he was employing deadly force. You don’t address deadly force with a taser or by singing kumbyla.

    • psodvcam

      It was justifiable to a cowardly girly man in uniform. Just the interaction with the crowd you can see the cops see their citizens of color as subhuman. Cops arrived to kill period, no attempts to talk, just fire like they were scared, get another job.

      • inquisitor

        They did talk.
        They said repeatedly—put down the knife.

        • Charlie Grapski

          To a mentally ill man – telling them to shoot him.

          He was mentally ill. He had no judgment.

          They were not (presumed). But they were not rationally using sound judgment. Because that would have said to them – if we shout “STOP” “PUT DOWN THE KNIFE” – we ought to KNOW he is not going to – and is LIKELY to do EXACTLY what he did.

          THEY CAUSE HIS RE-ACTION – by their INAPPROPRIATE and UNREASONABLE initial ACTIONS.

          • inquisitor

            Cops had no knowledge of his being mentally ill.

            And a mentally ill man can slash and gash someone to death just the same, perhaps even better than a sane man.

            You have the mental room to debate it right now because I am not rushing up to you aggressively with a knife.

          • Al Verum

            Today, in you high school class think about the ridiculous things you posted when you should have been studying for an exam or something.

          • inquisitor

            You need medication.

          • steveo

            .Shoot first, that works better.

          • Harry Bolzitch

            Your point is spot on. But people like Charlie will never get it until someone in their own family is killed or otherwise harmed by a lunatic like this guy. Until then it’s always, like Obama says, that we should seek understanding and talk it out. Hasn’t worked out for Obama at all and it certainly wouldn’t have worked for these two cops either.

          • AS1124

            and people like you who have NO idea about MI people will never get it: These people are less likely statistically to actually harm people while they are having an episode than “normal” criminals who have their wits about them and threaten people. Go look it up.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Yeah, and I can tell that you have NO idea about police work.

            Yup, my partner and I never had to fight a psycho who was trying to seriously hurt us and others.

          • aaron

            I don';t think it’s unreasonable to expect that cops at least receive training for these kinds of circumstances. at the moment, no police deparment officers it and SURPRISE! an enormous number of police shootings result in the deaths of mentally ill people, often inside their own homes. these cops obviously only received escalation approach training, but of course its also a race and class problem. had this been a wealthy looking white man in a fine suit carrying a knife, it might very well have ended the same way, sure, but I’m just going to guess that the officers would have been less afraid of him and therefore more likely to feel like they didn’t need to use their guns.

          • inquisitor

            Naw…it isn’t like that.

          • AS1124
          • AS1124

            yes they did. The call stated he was talking to himself and acting erratically. That is an OBVIOUS sign of schizophrenia. This was incompetence , negligence and murder.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            So what? They are supposed to get stabbed while you sing kumbyla with the loony-toon?

          • pete

            Charlie, love your stuff. I respectfully disagree on this though. Mentally ill people, as you say, have no judgement. One with a knife might just start slashing. I agree, the cops could have taken a different course of action. But the one they chose, was legal and justified IMHO. We all have the right of self defense. And when a knife is out, someone may die.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            HE HAD A KNIFE AND CHARGED THE OFFICERS.

            End of story.

          • Boko Hos

            The officers had the choice to no confront him in that manner and decided to do so anyway. They’re morons and this video is a perfect example of why they need to refine the selection process.

          • Nemo

            If walking towards the officers is “charging”, then cops are legally justified in shooting anyone approaching them. All they have to do is say that they were in “fear” for their lives afterwards.

            Your cop side is speaking here, not your lawyer side, ECLS. Tray thinking in terms of how you would represent the family of the deceased, rather than the defense attorney for the cops who killed an innocent (if the cops get “innocent until proven guilty”, then so does this guy – and the victim in this case killed no one) man.

            Go ahead and keep correcting silly legal theories, ELCS, but please stop acting as the defense attorney for cops who kill and abuse people, OK?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            I wouldn’t represent them. There is no point in taking on a losing case.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Talk about losing cases…

            You’re the only losing case around here!

            Rail Car Fan

          • Harry Bolzitch

            “then cops are legally justified in shooting anyone” What a completely ridiculous premise. Way to try and twist the story by equating someone just normally walking up to a police officer to some crazy, knife-wielding asshole walking up in an aggressive manner.

          • thehossdriver .

            He stopped being ‘innocent’ when he failed to comply with lawful orders, resisted arrest, pulled a knife, and proceeded as an aggressor with a deadly weapon…

          • Al Verum

            More nonsense from someone who is neither a COP or a LAWYER.

          • jackassletters

            Actually it’s not the end. That’s the problem I have with this story. We can argue about whether or not they should have shot him, but we can agree the report after should accurately reflect what happened, correct?

          • aron

            pretty sure he’s just walking towards them. but if feel better about it using ‘charged’ that’s cool I guess

          • Rail Car Fan

            YOU need to look at the video again. He did not “CHARGE” the officers! The video shows him slowly walking (NOT CHARGING) toward the cops… and on top of that, he didn’t lunge toward them (with a upraised arm) as the cops so stated.

            As I have said before, ex-“COP”, why is it I didn’t expect a response (other than what you just gave), from you?

            Rail Car Fan

          • Boko Hos

            You can’t debate with most of the people on here because they’re all just dying to suck a cop’s dick. Cops aren’t brave or well trained and certainly aren’t tested for good judgement.

          • Kyoju Konton

            A mentally ill man can kill you just as dead.

        • putaro

          Twenty-one seconds. The cops pull up at 1:22 on the video and at 1:43 they’ve finished firing.

          • inquisitor

            Good, for once, to finally see my tax dollars paying for efficient and good service.

          • http://Www.youtube.com/user/ftgjustice F.T.G.

            Wow. I’m not often speechless.

          • inquisitor

            And you would be speechless if I rushed you with a knife.
            In most random attacks, even without a weapon, the target or victim usually psychologically freezes…even with training.
            Which is why when lethality is part of the offense, you must act decisively, quickly and with finality…or you are dead…as judgment and timing are already naturally impaired.
            And once you are cut with a knife and you see your arm butterflied open, you will go into shock and then just get cut up even more.

          • Keyser Soze

            From what youve described, i think it would be really cool to watch someone cut you up. Hope it happens soon.

          • inquisitor

            Thank for sharing with us all your mental illness.

          • Al Verum

            You’re the one taking verbal bullets for your hero murdering cops.

          • inquisitor

            I am not defending the shooters because they are cops.
            Anyone in that position would have been justified shooting him.

          • William Pike

            if you rushed me with a knife, i’d take it away from you and make you eat it.

          • inquisitor

            The odds of an unarmed person disarming a motivated knife attacker without getting incapacitated by severe injury or killed…about 0.
            You have had too much to drink today.

          • Nemo

            “About 0″? The odds of getting through such an encounter uninjured are about that, but incapacitated? You’re making stuff up. Mike Brown, by all accounts, was alive after at least 4 gunshot wounds from a supposed professional. “Motivated” does not equal “trained”. Ask an expert. It is /hard/ to kill someone with a knife, in a straight-up encounter.

            You are trying to assert that knives are more lethal than guns. Try again.

          • inquisitor

            Never said that knives were more lethal that guns.

          • Al Verum

            Yeah he was really motivated alright. The citizens surrounding him gave him space, but they didn’t have the blood thirst to kill.

          • Al Verum

            Too many youtube videos for you. Now here is a dose of reality – they murdered a man in cold blood, on video and you defend it – that makes you an accomplice after the fact IMO.

          • Al Verum

            I know your mommy, daddy or wifey (wifey?) must be a cop.

          • inquisitor

            This is the same advice I would give anyone, I am not partial to police in this regard.

          • Al Verum

            2 shots while the man is on the ground – wow!

        • aaron

          They yelled put down the knife, to someone in his state, aggressive language and posture doesn’t result in submission or compliance, just escalation. Cops we’re too scared to begin with to think clearly enough to use a calm, but firm tone of voice.

          • inquisitor

            Naw…it wasn’t like that at all.

        • AS1124

          youre such a tool. SMH

      • Kyoju Konton

        If you’re inside 21 feet and coming at me with a knife, two to the chest and one to the head is the best response.

        • Rail Car Fan

          You sound like another one of those Gung-Ho guys who feel as though your pistol is …. (some other part of your body). This is suppose to be a web site that families can read, so I’ll just leave it at that.

          Rail Car Fan

    • putaro

      These videos illustrate the entire problem. Cops watch this and go “justified shooting”. Most other people would say “You executed him” As long as the evidence was confined to written police reports and ignored eyewitnesses the mismatch between police perceptions and everyone else has been hidden. I’m sorry that you’ve been trained to believe that this was a reasonable response. It was not.

      • Alexander Vucelic

        putaro,

        very good point – these videos illustrate the chasm between cops and Americans

      • Al Verum

        I think ECLS is really an ex mall cop paralegal wannabe.

    • Charlie Grapski

      Um. Actually the introduction of Tasers was INITIALLY JUSTIFIED – to be used in these VERY circumstances – of a person with a knife, for example.

      But they don’t teach you that in Police school – or even law school.

      • inquisitor

        I put more faith in a bullet than prongs any day of the week.

        • Charlie Grapski

          Again – that is why a person of your disposition – has no BUSINESS in law enforcement.

          That is not necessarily an “insult” – most people are not capable of doing that job PROPERLY (including MORALLY).

          • Juan Montoya

            Charlie, when was the last time you were charged at by a lunatic with a knife ?

          • Charlie Grapski

            Does it matter? When was the last time you got out of a car, with a gun drawn, knowing you were looking at a mentally ill and disturbed man about 50 feet away, and aimed your gun at him … and did not expect a “re-action” to your “action.”

            But – I can assure you – in that situation (if i did the unjustified acts above first) – I would have gotten back into the vehicle.

          • Juan Montoya

            you running with your tail between your legs would make for a great video.
            so while you were running away, who is supposed to arrest this man ?

          • Charlie Grapski

            1) i said get back into the vehicle. But running away would also be an option (I know cops have to be “manly” so should never consider a strategic “retreat”).

            2) Why did he need to be arrested? What crime did he commit?

          • Juan Montoya

            apparently he stole some beverages and was walking around with a knife. then he aggressively approached officers with a knife screaming “shoot me”.

          • Charlie Grapski

            He may have shoplifted – two cans of an energy drink.

            Not a violent crime. Not justification for apprehension with deadly force.

            Walking around with a knife – is not a crime. Threatening people with one – is. But he threatened NO ONE with a knife.

            He waked in the direction of the police – saying “shoot me” – his pace and nature were not “aggressive.” He casually moved in their direction. (And they did not need to be outside their vehicle of they were afraid).

            And saying “shoot me” is the opposite of “I’m gonna shoot YOU.” (Or even STAB you).

            They did not HAVE to shoot. That is why it is MORALLY unjustified – and if the law were followed FAITHFULLY (including as a means toward JUSTICE) – it is also not LEGALLY justified.

            And when a person starts saying “shoot me” – not only do you not PROVOKE him – let alone OBLIGE him – but you get in your car, radio in that the issue is of a mentally ill and clearly disturbed individual – and a SPECIALIST trained in such matters needs to be called. While the police sit – patiently – in their vehicle (free from potential harm) – and wait – while WATCHING to make sure no one outside is harmed (which was not an issue prior to their arrival – so likely would not have been while they were there).

            It WILL be held to be legally justified. But that is because the law has become, with the rest of the system, fundamentally “corrupted.” It is broken.

          • inquisitor

            Walking around with a knife in many places is illegal.
            Concealed in your pocket even more illegal.
            Brandishing it, ignoring officer’s orders to drop it and advancing toward officers in a menacing manner while yelling shoot me…illegal.

          • Keyser Soze

            It is not against the law to ignore a police officers orders

          • Jamesdiamond

            You are correct if you are talking about unlawful orders but in this case the officers telling him repeatedly to drop the knife is most definitely a lawful order.

          • Rail Car Fan

            If you are unable to HEAR (thus understand) what is being spoken to you because you may be DEAF Ho/HI, how, pray tell, do you expect someone in that unfortunate condition to do what they are being told?

            Rail Car Fan

          • Jamesdiamond

            Unless this guy was deaf your point has no valid reasoning in this situation, try again when it does though.
            But let’s just assume for now he was deaf, would you assume the police were wanting you to do anything at all but drop the knife and stop advancing on them in that situation or does it take more than common sense to figure that one out?
            If the guy was deaf it was still a justified shooting, or does being deaf give the person a legal reason to approach anyone in a threatening manner brandishing a knife?

          • Rail Car Fan

            I was making a “general” statement about being Deaf Ho/Hi in relation to yours of… “cops giving orders” and NOT that the shot victim was D H/H.

            It was not my intention to have made my post so difficult that you were unable to understand it.

            Of course, authors are often told that when they write they need to make sure they use words of a 8th grade level to insure those of limited ability who read it will better understand what is being said.

            Rail Car Fan

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            No, you are correct, when the order is unlawful.

            It is suicidal when you ignore the order while coming at the officer with a knife.

          • Al Verum

            So how many academies rejected your application? I mean even law enforcement has minimum standards and I have been reading your comments and I think most cops would feel threatened if you put on a uniform.
            I can see it now your first day in the “field” 5 school kids shot for carrying pencils with pointy leads. You are a real piece of work.

          • inquisitor

            I used to run drugs and had corrupt cops on my payroll because they are scum. Go lecture someone else.

          • inquisitor

            Running away in this scenario equates to offering up your backside to a slice and dice, a nick and poke, a stab and jab fest on your spinal nerves and kidneys.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Stepping a foot or two back into the car – would mean a knife could not knick you – let alone kill you.

            Wearing the bullet proof vests they wear – means that unless he gets the jugular – the worst is a cut on the arm.

          • inquisitor

            I bet you your life that I could have sliced you good before you got that car door closed from that distance.

            The arm will do just nicely and kill you just fine.
            It would be the arm you were extending out while grabbing the door handle in your futile attempt to close it.

            At worst inconvenience to me due to my inept slowness, I would shatter the window with my elbow and jam the knife in your temple.

          • Al Verum

            …what an imagination. You and ex=slop law sturgeon would make a good couple. You enacting out your wild knife scenes as he lobs mock briefs back at you. Marriage made in heaven and here on PINAC.

          • Dolt

            You would “shatter the window with your elbow”? LMAO.

            Just for more laughs… in your mind, does this “stabbing in the temple” part happen in one fluid motion with the “shattering the window with your elbow”?

            LMFAO. Amazing.

            Or sad. Since cops really do think like this. Hence their “need” for tanks, armored mine-clearing vehicles, and desert cameo in urban settings.

          • inquisitor

            Doesn’t need to be one fluid motion when you are sitting in the car unable to really go anywhere. I could take my time as you have no room to maneuver sitting in the front seat.

          • sfmc98

            Wearing the bullet proof vests they wear – means that unless he gets the jugular – the worst is a cut on the arm.

            Ballistic vests are not knife proof. Common misconception.

          • Nemo

            Ballistic vest have armor inserts that are knife-proof. Common misconception.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Which are extremely limited in coverage area and rarely issued by departments.

          • Gregor

            But there’s no need to worry about armor plates and knives when you have a gun to get rid of the scum sucking criminal who is threatening your life.

          • Jamesdiamond

            You are almost correct but let’s see. Arteries under the arm, femoral artery in leg, arteries in the wrist and inside inner arm under the bicep, arteries in the neck, cranial nerves under the chin and behind the neck. A cut to each of these areas and you die. Now the fatal areas a vest will protect. A direct stab to the heat.
            I did not include the artery in the Achilles heel since the chances of being cut/stabbed there are very low.

          • Al Verum

            you are like the energizer bunny. You just keep going and going and going beating the same old drum over and over again. Good moronic show friend.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Shoplifting for one, but the two 911 calls were for man with a knife and disturbed individual.

          • Al Verum

            That’s just it THEY DIDN’T ARREST HIM THEY MURDERED HIM – do you get it?

          • Unity Nowe

            Charlie, that is spot on. An intelligent , wise person would know that you do not approach someone who is obviously in crisis, in an aggressive, manner. The cops were already poised and ready with guns drawn down on this man. They knew what they were going to do before they even got out of their vehicle. But who ever said that cops were intelligent or wise? As long as they go home at night, everyone else can eat shit and die.

          • inquisitor

            There was no way to accurately determine if the man was mentally ill or disturbed.
            And they can stab just as effectively as a sane attacker.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Well – actually – the call was about a mentally ill man.

            And anyone could see he was mentally ill.

            And when he said “shoot me” “kill me” – I think it was pretty much a “reasonable” assumption any REASONABLE individual could make. The problem is – under the current police culture – police are TRAINED NOT to be REASONABLE. (It is based on the importation of a MILITARY (war-zone) mindset into domestic policing).

          • inquisitor

            So a license psychologist who evaluated the suspect thoroughly made the call?

            All I could see was a knife.

            Have you ever grown up in a rough black neighborhood and been the victim of random and cruel black on white violence or random and senseless black on black violence?
            Like the knockout game?
            I know many a black person who have little value for their own life due to hardship and abuse and have enough bravado to say shoot me when justifiably confronted.
            You lose credibility with me with every post.

          • Charlie Grapski

            The man was mentally ill. The police knew this to be the case when they arrived. And even if they didn’t they are supposed to be trained to recognize this issue.

            And when someone is saying “kill me” and “shoot me” – it doesn’t require a psychologist to recognize the issue.

            And I don’t know what you saw – but I have looked pretty closely at that video – and I don’t see much of what looks life a knife. I am not disputing – at the latter stage – he had a knife in his hand. What I am saying is – the video is just not close enough to see much of what is in his hand.

          • inquisitor

            All debate was based upon the notion that he had a knife.
            And if he had a knife, my views and opinions are the same.

          • Al Verum

            You can be killed over a NOTION? Really. Great cop training there.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Ahhhh. But you see, that IS the way cops (and, oh yes, Inquisitor) thinks.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Gregor

            It doesn’t matter if he was mentally ill. All that matters is that he was an immediate threat. If he forgot to take his I-Can’t-Cope-Pills or if his mama smacked him around… also irrelevant. He was a scumbag criminal who will no longer victimize another law-abiding citizen.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Actually – it does matter legally if he was mentally ill.

            And the evidence simply does not support the claim of a real and credible imminent threat of significant harm.

          • Nemo

            No one here has been the victim of “the knockout game” while growing up. Nice try at asserting that “blacks are violent”, however. As for the Black people you say have little value for their lives due to abuse, just who do you believe is abusing them, the Tooth Fairy?

            Saying that the cops are justified in shooting people who react badly because the cops have abused them makes no sense.

          • Al Verum

            You…you…you have the audacity to say that he loses credibility?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Yeah, because he actually started with some credibility, unlike you who has none.

          • Al Verum

            I knew you would respond. Your tactless and will starve as a lawyer. You can take your case law to the nearest KFC and apply.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            I can describe in vivid detail the events when a driver (who I had previously arrested for drugs) reached for an 8-inch long butcher knife. I never considered going back to my squadcar even though he was in his car. I screwed the barrel of my revolver in his ear and told him not to move. I could have legally blown his brains over the dashboard – but did not.

            If I followed your advice on any number of the incidents where I could have shot a suspect, I would be dead.

            You should really stick to what you know, because armed encounters ain’t it.

          • Charlie Grapski

            What I know – is when police (in a democratic society which cherishes individual liberty and justice) ought and ought not to use or even display deadly force.

            What I know – is only a few people are qualified to be police. And most who become police – are the last people that should be considered.

            What I know is – that only a few, good, police are needed in society.

            What I know is – when you put heavily armed and military minded people in uniform, with badge and gun – you don’t reduce crime, you increase it (including by ADDING criminals to the street – but this time in uniform).

            I am not saying all police are bad. I am saying the system is corrupted – broken – and is the cause of most of these problems.

          • Al Verum

            Few qualified is right – like exslop and inquisitor.

          • Boko Hos

            :”I could have legally blown his brains over the dashboard” there you go with more of your retarded “laws” again.

          • Al Verum

            I love how you say that you could have “legally blown his brains over the dashboard – but did not”. You write it like you were reliving the rush of power over life and death that the event gave you. As if you were some sort of benevolent god when acting in a position that YOU VOLUNTEERED TO DO. Nobody forced you to be god ex slop.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            That wasn’t the point, you moron.

          • Al Verum

            If it wasn’t the point then you added clutter stupid. You will not make it as a lawyer and I have the feeling you aren’t making it as a student.
            Not very bright are you…and easily provoked into making ridiculous statements.

          • Rail Car Fan

            It is said that the point when one starts to lose a argument is when, instead of using facts to back up what they’re saying, the revert to calling their adversary names.

            Your above comment says it all.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Rail Car Fan

            So…? Are we all now suppose to stand up, clap and cheer? OK. Here goes.

            Clap… Clap.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Keyser Soze

            When was the last time you intentionally signed up for a job knowing it was dangerous? If youre so scared of getting hurt that you feel the need to shoot every living thing that steps within 20 feet of you, maybe you should go work in a nice air conditioned office somewhere instead of being a cop. Oh but thats right, office workers arent allowed to indiscriminately murder people whenever they want. Bummer.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          As would anyone, police, civilian, or military, if they have any sense.

          • Charlie Grapski

            I put more faith in morality, justice, law understood as justice, and common sense and reason.

            If a man (starting from far more than 15 feet away) approaches with a knife – and you REALLY FEAR he might use that, and you are standing next to your car, door open, and behind that door – you just GET IN THE CAR and ROLL UP THE WINDOW.

            Then you have nothing to fear.

            In that COMMON SENSE – I have faith. IN the corrupted sense of American law today – I have NO FAITH.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            No, then you get stabbed. You don’t have time to do all of that, plus he’ll just bust out the window and then stab you if you did manage to get in the car.

            You have no conception of the speed that someone with a knife can move to you and kill you.

            That common sense and faith will get you killed.

          • Charlie Grapski

            If you claim – and expect to be taken seriously – these officers had no time to step into the vehicle and close the door – you are either not being honest or not a very good judge of such things.

          • inquisitor

            I am quite skilled with a blade and have trained with them for decades.
            I would never have taken the chance at 15 feet to do what you suggest.
            Your suggestion is more insane than holding a knife while rushing two police officers with guns aimed at you.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            That’s because neither you or I are a) idiots, or b) suicidal.

          • Boko Hos

            Uh, no, sorry. You’re both idiots and anyone that decided to rely on either of you would be suicidal. You almost got it right.

          • Charlie Grapski

            With your TRAINED SKILL with a knife (which makes you DIFFERENT from the victim) – would you have believed that your little knife would likely enable you to kill the two armed police officers – standing defensively in relation to the vehicle and wearing bullet proof vests – from that fifteen feet …

            ,,, or would you have known you don’t bring a knife to a two gun fight?

          • inquisitor

            No. Just one officer…the closest one.

          • pete

            Might get the second one too if you move rights.

          • inquisitor

            Probably not with his gun also having been drawn and aimed onto the target. Would have shot me before I finished stabbing the first officer.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Yeah – if you moved like they do in those martial arts video games when you hit the “special powers” button – and SWOOOSH into the air spinning like a top – holding out your arm with your knife as you rapidly fly from one office – OVER THE VEHICLE – to the other side – and get both of ‘em.

          • Charlie Grapski

            So you admit you’d most likely have died – even if your highly trained abilities were successful at one kill.

            This person did not have your training.

            And given what you know – with your training – that MAYBE you’d get one – but you’d be dead – would you make the attack?

            I didn’t think so.

          • inquisitor

            And none of that is relevant.

          • pete

            Charlie, might I suggest you visit an Escrima school near you. You’ll have a much different view on what a little knife can do.

          • Charlie Grapski

            I am not saying that a lot can be done with a knife. What I am saying is – there was little risk of that in this case – under these circumstances – AND – there was no risk if the officers got in their car, called in that they had a mentally ill and disturbed man, and they needed someone TRAINED to deal with such people to come to the scene.

          • pete

            Yup. I wouldn’t do it at 50 feet. I think Charlie needs the “chalk test”. That is always an eye opener. “You mean I got slashed and stabbed how many times from that distance”?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Well, I’m not the only one then. You may want to check out Force Science Institute, Police Policy Studies Council, National Institute of Justice, National Criminal Justice Reference Service, etc.

            If you haven’t studied the scientific material on the issues, you are either not being honest or you’re not a very good judge of such things.

          • Charlie Grapski

            So I should look to police think tanks – and expect a non-police culture evaluation? These institutes were created TO JUSTIFY these positions and norms.

            And I have studied quite a bit of the “scientific” and “academic” literature on the use of force – use of deadly force – and history of policing.

          • Boko Hos

            Exactly. Going to ask a cop what a cop should do is as insane as expecting politicians to pass a law limiting their terms in office.

          • pete

            Actually Charlie, he is spot on. You don’t ever, unless you have no choice (e.g. Multiple attackers), turn your back on a man with a knife. That’s a death wish. You don’t allow yourself to be pinned against the car either. What you are suggesting would get a cop killed.

          • Charlie Grapski

            You don’t ever – draw and aim at a man – who has not committed a violent crime and is not threatening at that time significant to harm anyone.

            You don’t ever – provoke a mentally ill and clearly disturbed man – by pointing a gun at them and barking threats at him.

            And he was far enough away (not just when shot – but before he moved closer) to allow the officer to “turn his back” and get back in the car. AND you can get in the car (the officer on the passenger side – was never more than about two feet from the door – and most of the time was BEHIND the door; the other guy only moved forward WHILE SHOOTING) – without turning your back.

          • Boko Hos

            That’s okay. They’re paid to die.

          • Boko Hos

            ” He’ll just bust out the window” LOL You’re funny today. What next, ” he’ll leap tall buildings in a single bound”?

          • Nemo

            Claiming that a car window is easily busted is crap. Car windows can be broken out quickly, sure – with the right tools, and a knife ain’t one of them, generally speaking.

            There’s at least one youtube video of a guy shattering a car window by throwing a nut at it, but that doesn’t mean he got it right on the first take.

            There is also at least one video of a reporter trying to break the side window of a car with a hammer, in which he fails several times.

            You have no conception of what you are talking about, with regards to how a guy with a knife is going to bust out a window and kill you. You just want to justify cops killing because they wet their panties. Cop defends cop.

            Try acting as the prosecutor against the cops, rather than their defense attorney. You might find the experience educational. I know that until you successfully prosecute a good number of cops here, I wouldn’t vote for you as a DA.

          • Al Verum

            You write as if no one ever experiences anything that cops do. We know how fast people can move, we know that a gun is far better to have than a knife in a fight. We know that someone could break out a car window and GET US. Just one thing about the facts here ex slop…he didn’t charge the officers and he didn’t break any windows, he just didn’t drop whatever it was in his hands. Those are the facts.

          • pete

            Ex cop is right on this one too. Even for my age I could traverse that distance quickly and do a ton of damage just as fast. Not saying I’m good. I’m saying I’m not very good and that’s the point. Knives are brutal instruments. In the hands of someone with a clue how to use it will cut you to pieces.

        • Keyser Soze

          If youre scared say youre scared

        • Rail Car Fan

          Bullets… and the ability to place them, is only as good as the person behind the firearm!

          Rail Car Fan

    • inquisitor

      I train self-defense often and have more many years.

      I have reproduced instances where a knife wielding charging and running attacker can consistently close 20 feet before an armed defender can draw his holstered pistol, raise it, aim, fire a round and land a round that could incapacitate, fully stop or kill the knife wielding attacker without the pistol-armed person receiving a severe slicing and stabbing.

      The cop did the right thing…and it was made even more right with each and every round that he fired and successfully planted into his torso.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        We used to train officers at the range. We would blow a whistle, the officer was supposed to draw and fire from the hip at a 3-yard target before he was touched by an officer running from his non-gun side (from 21-feet away). None ever got the shot off before they were touched.

        This was a justified shooting.

        • Charlie Grapski

          Not morally it was not.

          And I would argue – if the law were properly understood and interpreted and applied – it would not be legally either.

          But I want to stress (because law and morality ought to be consistent rather than conflicting) – it was NOT MORALLY JUSTIFIED.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            You are incorrect.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Actually – YOU are incorrect. But there is no chance of getting you to even consider that.

          • inquisitor

            Sorry Charlie.
            In this instance…dead guy good.

          • Rail Car Fan

            I hope to heck you don’t carry, because it sounds like to me that there would be a string of bodies left behind if you did.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Rail Car Fan

            With your close minded attitude, THANK GOD you’re NOT a cop anymore… or there might be more dead victims on the street than there all ready are.

            Rail Car Fan

        • Rail Car Fan

          @ “EC-LS”…

          “This was a justified shooting.”

          Most of us here (except for Inquisitor, of course), didn’t expect you to say anything but the above.

          Rail Car Fan

      • putaro

        Here’s some key words from your scenario that weren’t present: running, holstered, raise weapon, aim. They had their guns out and aimed at the guy before he was within 20 feet of them. They also continued firing after he was down. I’d support them if he had a gun because you can do a lot of damage even after you’re on the ground with a gun, but not with a knife.

        One might ask, what would police in other countries do? Police in the UK, for example, are mostly unarmed. Confronted with a knife, do they merely say “Stop or I’ll say Stop again” or do they have other tactics for dealing with knife armed assailants that don’t involve killing them?

        And while you may think it’s justified and correct, a lot of other people do not and that’s why we’re having riots in Ferguson, because the police refuse to listen.

        • inquisitor

          I wasn’t comparing the scenarios, but illustrating the deadliness of the knife over a gun at a distance that many are not aware of.

          In regards to this scenario, closing 12 feet by beginning to run could have happened at any second and the cop could have even landed a gunshot but that is no guarantee the guy would not have stabbed him right in the heart.
          Apparently you just don’t get how possible that reality was in this scenario.

          Police in the UK are now becoming armed because they want to and are starting to get that request honored.

          And Ferguson has nothing to do with it as there is no footage to analyze of how that went down.

          • Charlie Grapski

            I doubt he could have stabbed in “right in the heart” because I am fairly confident they were wearing the standard bullet proof vests.

            Police in the UK are increasingly becoming armed since I left (about 2001). That is sad. But they are following (again unwisely) America.

            BUT – in the UK – the population is very UNHAPPY with armed police.

          • inquisitor

            A slice on the flexor side of your forearm or bicep will open up that artery quite sufficiently for a bleed out.
            You know…the one he would have sliced as you were trying to close the car door while unsuccessfully attempting to get your ass back into the car.

          • pete

            Spot on!

          • Charlie Grapski

            Again – the only people that placed themselves in harms way when it was not necessary (if we accept the low percentage odds you present as POSSIBLE) – were the officers.

            They never had to give him an opportunity – and I don’t mean by shooting and killing him.

            They made the wrong choices.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Bullet proof vests do not stop knives.

          • inquisitor

            Bullets do.

          • Boko Hos

            And it wouldn’t matter if they did, would it?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Not really, because the appropriate response in this case was to shoot the perp.

          • Boko Hos

            Thanks for confirming my theory.

          • putaro

            You know, I’ve heard that and so I went to look it up. Stab and bullet proof vests are available. Not all bullet proof vests will stop knives but they’re not fantasy. If I were a cop I’d make sure I had one that did both because knives are not exactly a rare threat on the street.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Most cops wear what is issued. Depts. issue bullet resistant vests because that is where the major threat is.

          • putaro

            So your scenario doesn’t justify their actions. Glad we’re clear on that.

            Knife wielding assailants are a common occurrence. Perhaps some tactics and equipment to deal with them without killing them are in order.

            Ferguson has everything to do with this. In Ferguson we have the cops believing that the shooting of Michael Brown was justified and the community believing that it was not. It’s quite possible that if there was a video of the incident that police officers would look at it and say “justified” while the majority of the community would say “not”. There’s a definite mismatch between what the law enforcement community believes is reasonable use of force and what a lot of other people believe is reasonable. Until that mismatch is addressed and corrected we’re going to see more mistrust of the police and more public reactions like Ferguson.

          • inquisitor

            What I had and am stating is that the scenario in the video is justified.
            A gun and accuracy are fine equipment and tactics for such an occurrence.
            The solution is already before you and look how well it worked…it is a win-win.

          • putaro

            They’re fine tactics only if you want to see someone dead at the end of the encounter.

          • inquisitor

            And with your tactics that dead someone at the end of the encounter would be…you.
            A fine choice, you should stick with that.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Then how come – HISTORICALLY – BEFORE this approach was used and approved – we DON’T have a slew of dead cops from all these similar hypothetical scenarios.

            HISTORY is NOT on your side in that argument.

          • inquisitor

            You have clearly demonstrated to me that you have no clue of what can be accomplished with a knife.
            And should someone come at me with one, I won’t be pulling out a history book on violence before I unload.
            Thus saving the book from being drenched in my blood for a good read later on.

          • Guest

            What is the evidence that supports your claim? In particular, what is the basis for asserting there is a difference between today’s approach for using deadly force and that used in the past? How do you believe the police responded to someone who was threatening them with a knife or a gun 50 or 100 years ago and can you provide me with some references that support your position?

            100 years ago the population of the US was about 1/3rd what it is today. A similar number of police officers were killed per year. I don’t know how many police officers were around 100 years ago so I assume they were in the same proportion as now. If so it appears that there was a higher rate of police officers dying on duty in the past.

            We should also compare society today and 100 years ago. Are guns more prevalent? Are more people walking around with knives and guns? Are there more mentally ill walking around on the streets as opposed to locked up in insane asylums?

          • Rail Car Fan

            Your above comment is spot on. Most cops believe everything they do… and say… is justified!

            Rail Car Fan

      • Unity Nowe

        The cops began the encounter the wrong way, period. There was no reason for them to approach the way they did. They escalated this situation, just like they do every situation they enter. This guy had not attacked anyone before they got there. He was pacing and talking to himself. No one was attacked or hurt probably because no one was being aggressive toward him. Then the cops roll up with their guns drawn before they get out of the car. No question, no trying to talk, they get out pointing guns and barking orders. I hope whoever called the cops in the first place is really happy with themselves now. A guy who was talking to himself on the sidewalk is dead now.

        • inquisitor

          You are…delusional.

          • Rail Car Fan

            NO…! You’re the one that’s very delusional with your SHOOT, SHOOT, SHOOT attitude.

            Rail Car Fan

        • Boko Hos

          You need to be careful because you forgot that self-victimization is the hallmark of all police activity.

      • Nemo

        The cops had their guns drawn immediately. You comparison fails. You are claiming that the cops were justified in killing a slowly-advancing man because “well, maybe”.

        Under that theory, I am justified for shooting a cop walking toward me, because he has a gun, and “well, maybe he will kill me”. They are trained to kill at the first quiver of fear, after all.

    • pete

      I don’t disagree. An absolute threat IMHO. But why lie about it? He approached them in a menacing manner holding a knife? Yup. Lunged at officers with an overhand grip? Not even fucking close.

      • Charlie Grapski

        No lunge. No overhand grip.

        BUT – really – no ACTUAL threat to the officers (and he made no prior threats to anyone – until he was “assaulted” by two officers drawing their guns and aiming them at him – without cause).

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          See above.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        Overhand grip is the manner of grip, not the position of the arm. In other words, if he is holding in an overhand grip, the knife can actually be at his side. Other grips are the forward grip (stabbing grip), reverse, Filipino, etc. I can’t tell from the video how he was gripping the knife, can you?

        • inquisitor

          The article says over-head grip.

          More clarity would be needed to determine if this is meant to be overhand grip.

          I would say he was holding it at his side in an overhand grip.

          There is no grip called over-head, but their is a knife strike or motion that is over head.

          A discrepancy here perhaps.

          But the shooting still justified nonetheless.

        • Charlie Grapski

          The Chief DEMONSTRATED the “overhand grip” he was referring to – by RAISING his arm – and (Like in the Movie Psycho) bending from the elbow with a driving force downward.

        • pete

          I train in a Filipino system. Never heard that use. Not saying it isn’t used but it isn’t a term I use/hear. Does this doublespeak apply to the word lunge? I saw the man walking with his hands down. Never saw a lunge. Perhaps that’s cop talk for walking. I don’t know what I don’t know. But I agree lethal force was justified no mater the terminology. We train that when a knive comes out, someone is dying. Because someone will.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Your neighbors must shake in fear if you act the way you talk here.

            Rail Car Fan

        • Boko Hos

          But you confirmed earlier that killing him was justified so why are you still arguing? Him just touching the knife would have been “justification” , according to you.

      • putaro

        Why lie? Because they know that the average person doesn’t support their use of force rules.

    • Dusty Miller

      I guess pepper spray, tasers and rubber bullets are only effective if the victim is 25 feet or more away.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        You don’t give someone a lollipop when they are robbing you, and you don’t use nonlethal devices on a lethal threat.

        • Charlie Grapski

          You use what force is (a) proportionate; and (b) necessary.

          Neither of those criteria were met.

          • Snake Eyes

            The proportionate response to deadly force is deadly force.

            Or, you don’t bring a Taser to a knife fight.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            He’s having a hard time understanding that.

            Maybe a visual will help.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ScvAJG51V4

          • Rail Car Fan

            Oh my God. Here’s another one!

            Rail Car Fan

        • Boko Hos

          Especially when qualified immunity gives you the option to always use lethal force and when you can qualify everything as a lethal weapon.

          • Rail Car Fan

            But you see… the “Cops Can Do NO Wrong!” people here don’t want you to bring that up because it blows a hole all to heck in their arguments.

            Rail Car Fan

    • Kenneth Browning

      Except they already had their guns drawn. The only reaction required is too shoot. Why not just tazer him? There was no reason to even have guns drawn. A tazer would have subdued the suspect. But the first reaction is for trigger happy police to pull their gun and shoot

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        Whatever.

        • Kenneth Browning

          Great argument. Shows you know you’re full of shit.

          • Boko Hos

            Yes , he’s full of shit. All of his postings are a veritable scat fest.

        • Rail Car Fan

          @ “EC-LS”…

          To take a play out of your book… because after all, accolades are due.

          “Nice Try. Thanks for Playing”!

          Rail Car Fan

      • inquisitor

        Not the only reaction to shoot.

        Guy could have stopped, drop the knife as instructed and continued to comply with placing his hands behind his head and lying down on the ground on his stomach.

        Tazer…limited range, one or two rounds, not as accurate, crazed and berserk individuals can take a short shock, pull the prongs out and still bury a knife in your chest.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          What?

          So the officer might be risking his life by doing that?

          Gee, that seems to be the difference between someone who can actually do the job instead of someone who merely teaches.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Yes. Don’t want to risk your life. Simple answer: Don’t become a law enforcement officer.

            You are supposed to ACCEPT THAT RISK – when you take that job.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Are we supposed to be assaulted, battered, kicked, and killed as part of the job?

            Don’t be an idiot. Sure there is risk. It doesn’t say we have to be stabbed to make you happy.

          • putaro

            So where do we draw the line? Maybe all cops should stay in the station house. Should you drive fast to respond to a call? Could have an accident (and don’t more cops die in traffic accidents than due to violence?). Heck, maybe you could just turn around and drive off when you see someone with a knife to make sure that nothing happens to you.

            Officer safety does not trump everything else and you know it. Where the line is drawn can be debated and needs to be debated. If there’s major disagreement between the public and the police about use of force you’re going to get more mistrust of the police and wind up with riots like in Ferguson. If you think the job’s too dangerous, find another.

          • Boko Hos

            Officer safety is the mantra of all law enforcement. They preach it constantly and even in public. The only other words that cops utter as frequently are ” stop resisting”, as they kick , punch and taze you.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Before the then shoot you from behind as you lay there unconscious.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Boko Hos

            “Are we supposed to be assaulted, battered, kicked, and killed as part of the job?:” Yes. That’s why you have great health and life insurance. They didn’t give you that because they loved you.

          • StreyDawg

            It is perfectly acceptable that the number one killer of cops is their own idiotic behavior; obesity and death from being fat fucks as well as their perpetual refusal to wear a seatbelt resulting in the top two causes of death for cops.

            But you clowns insist that the greatest risk they face are citizens. You idiots don’t need to wear a gunbelt, you need to wear a chastity belt on your face and a seatbelt.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Sorry Charlie… (as the tuna fish commercial starts off)…

            Of the 10 most deadliest jobs in America (per Forbes list)…

            http://www.forbes.com/pictures/efkk45emddl/americas-deadliest-jobs-2/

            Cops don’t even make it on to the list!

            Rail Car Fan

          • inquisitor

            I can’t wait to see the police jumping on knife blades all over the country.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Another country heard from…

            Rail Car Fan

    • rust

      God damn you, you ignorant son of a bitch. Don’t worry, you’ll get yours some day.

      What goes around, comes around. “Justified shooting” will be on your tombstone.

    • Keyser Soze

      15 feet away? Well he was a lot farther away before the cops DROVE THEIR CAR RIGHT UP TO HIM

    • Boko Hos

      As I’ve said many times, you were part of the problem for 20 years and will never be part of the solution.

    • Al Verum

      Since when do we allow Kevorkian Cops?
      Hey Ex-Cop (thank goodness for that) if he was such a threat why were the cops moving toward him as they were shooting…and don’t tell me it was for accuracy remember your 21 feet garbage rule.
      You post a lot of nonsense.

    • Al Verum

      Do you know that the best judge I have ever met was a retired “big city” cop? It doesn’t matter because you’ll never be very good…even if you do make it through your caribbean law school.

    • steveo

      people die every day, what’s one more UE or mentally ill on the morgues slab? UE stands for useless eater. The State of MO will provide a good burial, they cremate the body and put the ashes in a tin container, put a number on it, and throw them in the mass grave. Shit, there’s 4 billion people on this earth, we need to weed some out.

    • Kerfuffulator

      “Before you can react”? Even though you are pointing a gun at someone? The math does not add up.

      I’m not saying he was no threat. I am saying when you have a gun pointed at someone at 20 feet, is very different than trying to draw a holstered weapon, in the same circumstance.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        Yes, before you can react.

        Most of the time between seeing the threat and firing is taken up with reaction time. That doesn’t change whether the gun is holstered or not.

        Let me give you an example. I was a firearms instructor and was probably the 2d or 3d fastest in the department. I would start with a holstered sidearm against an officer at the low-ready and consistently knock down 5 steel plates at the buzzer before he (or she) could hit 2 or 3. I could not beat the Tueller drill, and I was on the high end of firearms skill (at the time, I don’t practice as much anymore).

        He was too close, and you don’t take a chance.

      • Rail Car Fan

        No, No… Don’t go there. You’re shooting down (pun intended), their argument with that little tidbit of fact. (wink)

        Rail Car Fan

    • anon

      21′ is the minimum safe distance for reacting from a position where the weapon is holstered. Weapon out, pointed at the target with finger on the trigger allows for a much shorter safe distance.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        Not really.

        • Rail Car Fan

          Right… NOT!

          Try telling that to Jerry Miculek who can “ACCURATELY” fire 6 rounds, reload and fire 6 more rounds from a revolver in less than 3 (THREE) seconds.

          Rail Car Fan

    • aaron

      is it unrealistic to think that these cops, had they tried to calm him down and talk him down and get him help, rather than immediate present aggressively might have avoided using their weapons? If your kid has a psychotic break and wielding a knife in the kitchen you’d probably try talking that knife out of his hand before getting the shotgun right. I don’t see why we can’t expect the same of our police. Does this option just not occur to you at all? The fact that you think this might be suicide by cop only supports the need for better police training for these sorts of situations, These men did not have to get out of their car, or could have exited on the far side where vehicle would have provided protection. They could have kept their weapons holstered and talked with the man, instead they just followed the same stupid command escalate protocol.

    • Rail Car Fan

      @ “EC-LS”…

      “It was a justified shooting.”

      Well, I didn’t expect anything different from you, but then again…

      Rail Car Fan

    • bobholderman

      Agreed. It looks like a justifiable shoot to me. he clearly had something in his right hand (the action looks as if he’s opening a knife). He got very close and was advancing. It seems to me he was trying to get himself shot. I think there is an argument to be made for using a taser in this particular instance. He could have ended up not dead, which I think is preferable.

  • fergusonCivilrights

    Good article.
    But as a disclaimer, I don’t believe that racial minorities are the cornerstone recipients of brutal treatment by LEOs– plenty of poor-social-class white men face police brutality just as
    unfairly as minority men. Secondly, I consider myself a capitalist (but NOT a laissez faire adherent).

    “Supremacy: A Social Order of Division, Control and Enslavement”
    OpEdNews Op Eds 8/20/2014 at 09:00:30
    By Kali Ma

    “It seemed like Mrs. Elliott was taking our best friends away from us.”

    These are the words of a third-grader from Riceville, Iowa. Her schoolteacher, Jane
    Elliott, had just put her class through an exercise that showcased the viciousness and injustice of white supremacy in the late 1960s. Jane Elliott has since replicated this exercise countless times, but her original lesson remains a groundbreaking insight into the mechanisms of supremacy as depicted in the documentary A Class Divided. By labeling
    the blue-eyed students in her class smarter and better, and giving them more privileges than
    the brown-eyed students, Jane Elliott instantly creates division and hostility between the two groups. She constantly reinforces the superiority of her blue-eyed students who suddenly feel
    more confident and perform better at tasks than their now demoralized and dejected brown-eyed classmates. This division creates conflict between the students, which greatly upsets them and even leads to physical fights. Jane Elliott is stunned by the results of her exercise, saying: “I watched what had been marvelous, cooperative, wonderful, thoughtful children turn into nasty, vicious, discriminating little third-graders in a space of fifteen minutes.”

    Jane Elliott’s exercise clearly illustrates how simple it is to ignite conflict between people once a group of individuals is elevated above another. It also demonstrates how supremacy creates powerlessness in the “inferior” group and that the loss of personal power eventually leads to hostility and violence. This is the system we live under today – a hierarchy that
    ranks people based on their “worth” and socio-economic status.

    Hierarchy
    – A Tool of Supremacy To varying degrees, most socio-economic systems in the world today are hierarchical. [1] In a system of hierarchy, individuals occupy social ranks based on their levels of income and wealth, which significantly affect their access to vital resources such
    as food, shelter, healthcare, and education. In all hierarchies there is a ruling class on top that holds significant social, political, and economic power and whose interests are in direct opposition to those of the masses. A hierarchical structure is, in essence, about power – the
    ability to control and shape outcomes that further the interests of the ruling class. Since money is the way to greater freedom, most people intend to move up the hierarchy and buy their way into a new reality. After all, those at the top have the freedom to act in ways most people cannot: they make the rules and break them with impunity; they have access
    to resources, people and capital that allows them to easily perpetuate their wealth; and their occupations often include those of “socialite,” “philanthropist,” and some even get paid to party.

    As an economic system, a hierarchical structure is inefficient and creates unnecessary
    scarcity because it allows the ruling class to hoard wealth and resources while the majority fights it out over “leftovers.” Additionally, because its structure grants disproportionate power and privilege to those on top, it creates a system that is only beneficial to a wealthy
    minority. Economic inequality is particularly insidious in a hierarchical social order in which wealth determines social status. Such systems create extreme inequality where the gap between the rich and poor is great and social mobility is particularly difficult.

    Supremacy is the hallmark of hierarchy where being a “winner” depends on someone
    else being a “loser” and where wealth is created at the expense of other people and the environment without concern for the collective good. Hierarchies are inherently coercive because they grant dominant groups the authority to impose their rules and ideology on those below them. It is thus a system of dominance, commanding its full power, authority and
    coercive nature against “weaker” subjects (i.e. the “have-nots” or “inferiors”). However, it is by no means a “natural” arrangement or, as many would say, “just the way things are.” A
    hierarchical social system is closely linked to the systemic subjugation of women under
    patriarchy, which emerged as a dominant structure in the last 5,000 years of modern human history and helped spur on the agricultural revolution. [2] In effect, humans have lived in
    hierarchical systems for a fraction of our existence; yet during this new time period we have
    exhausted much of the world’s resources and are quickly heading for a collision course with nature itself.

    The purpose of hierarchy in a socio-economic system is not to create opportunities but to
    protect the supremacy of the ruling elite by controlling people’s autonomy and dividing the working class amongst one another through social and economic stratification.

    ‘Divide and Conquer’

    While a hierarchical structure places the ruling class on top, it also divides the working people into various “levels” of socio-economic status, with money determining the place in the pecking order. Because there are various “levels” of social status with millions of people competing for the few spots on top, solidarity and cooperation between the people
    becomes virtually impossible. As a result of this stratification, the lower classes compete against each other and become divided along social, political, and economic lines. In other words, a hierarchical structure breeds competition, division, and outright hostility amongst
    the various members in society.

    Social Conflict within the Working Class In addition to fostering general class conflict and
    powerlessness in “inferior” groups, supremacy also creates a hierarchy of worthiness that is directly linked to how closely each of us resembles the ‘”supreme” image. This “supreme” ideal has traditionally been white, wealthy and male. If we do not meet that profile, then we
    can at least strive to behave and speak like them, think and believe as they do, or shape our personas in countless ways to appear acceptable to them or as close to the “supreme” image as possible. Economic worth and, in turn our ranking in the hierarchy, are directly linked to how closely we resemble the “supreme” image of white, male privilege. Those who least reflect this “supreme” ideal are deemed “inferior” and labeled as the “other.” Because
    we internalize the “supreme” image early on in our lives, we grow up judging ourselves
    and others based on that standard. We are effectively pit against one another and through our judgments dehumanize, disrespect, marginalize, and deem unworthy individuals who do not meet the “supreme” standard and who occupy a lower rung on the hierarchy. This dehumanization and “otherness” of individuals who are different from the “supreme” standard
    is inherent in a hierarchical structure and is at the root of sexism (male supremacy), racism (white supremacy), classism (class supremacy), homophobia (heterosexual supremacy), ethnocentrism (cultural supremacy) and all other social and political divisions under the sun.
    Victim-blaming and general hostility towards those who are “different” or “inferior” becomes a staple of hierarchical society.

    Of course there are exceptions and a privileged upbringing can cancel out many “inferior” traits. However, exceptions are just that: rare occurrences that do not reflect the rule and the reality that happens every day, all day, everywhere. In fact, exceptions are often used to
    distract us and falsely convince us that society has overcome classism, racism, sexism, or
    homophobia. In reality, society has gotten much better at hiding its inequities by commercializing, fetishizing, and pop- culturulizing the lives of individuals who are subject to real, everyday discrimination. It is privilege and supremacy we must challenge in all their forms, which are still deeply rooted in white, male, privilege and power.

    Economic Conflict within the Working Class
    The hierarchy of worthiness also plays out in our economic system. In a hierarchical economic structure, the lower classes are the foundation upon which the successes of others are built. For instance, professionals such as doctors and engineers occupy higher socio-economic standings than Wal-Mart cashiers who ring up their groceries or janitors who clean and maintain their offices. Of course, not everyone possesses the skills and talents to be a doctor or engineer, or for that matter, a cashier or janitor. But when more privileged individuals blame others for being poor, “unaccomplished,” “unsuccessful,” or unemployed, they do not take into account that the reason they are in a superior position is because someone else is in an inferior, lower position. This is how hierarchy works – someone has to rank at the bottom in order for those on top to be recognized as the “winners.” Without such ranking, everyone would be equal. Moreover, society absolutely depends on workers to clean, maintain, repair and service various sectors of society, including private property and public commons. These individuals provide an extremely valuable service that allows society to function yet the system gives them no credit and, in fact, looks down on them and blames them for being in that position.

    Just imagine a society without sanitation workers to haul off your waste and keep the streets clean, or maintenance workers to keep your buildings running and the AC flowing when it’s 100 degrees outside, or grocery clerks who stock your food and water so you can conveniently pick it up and feed your family. Without them, doctors, lawyers, engineers and
    other members of the professional class could not go about their business. But society has little respect for these individuals who are often paid minimum wage with no benefits; yet they
    are the very people who make society function.

    The “winner” in this unequal arrangement is always the wealthy ruling class who owns the factories, corporations, businesses, and most other institutions and profits from the labor of the working class. The “owners” of society, essentially, sit back and watch their profits
    soar while the working class slaves over increasingly lower wages and deteriorating working conditions imposed on them by the same people their labor enriches. Individuals of privilege occupy “leadership” positions in all areas of society, from corporations, government and
    non-profit organizations to the medical, legal, and academic fields. The privileged play
    both villain and superhero, terrorizing and rescuing the lower classes who are simply pawns in the ruling elite’s game of interest and intrigue. The supremacy of the ruling class is legitimized
    by the meritocracy myth that the most intelligent individuals in society naturally succeeded. The truth, however, is that the wealthy and privileged always end up on top in a system that is
    created by them to protect their own interests and power.

    The meritocratic rationalization for why the wealthy have so much wealth – namely that they are smart and worked hard – is simply ridiculous. Janitors, secretaries, sanitation workers, and plenty of other people are smart and work hard – sometimes at 2 or 3 different jobs – yet their
    incomes can be as much as 1,795 times lower than that of the “owners.” The excuse that elites are smarter is equally absurd seen as how the education system is set up to favor
    individuals of privilege and serves to protect the power of the ruling class. But for the sake of
    argument, if indeed they are rewarded by wealth because of their hard work and intelligence, when does the time of rewards come to hard-working lower class people? Shouldn’t they be rewarded for their invaluable work that keeps society and the world functioning? And what
    about the fact that the “superior” ruling elite has completely failed at leading society on all levels, pretty much driving us off the cliff into global suicide? The truth, of course, is that in
    a system based on domination, the few on top who make the rules can do no wrong
    regardless of their incompetence. All that matters is the supremacy of their position, which is attained through wealth that has, for the most part, been passed down through generations.

    Controlling our Bodies Slavery is the ultimate control of people’s bodies for economic
    exploitation. A slave has no autonomy, because his actions depend on the permission of another who “owns” him. Within our society today, slavery is not as obvious as it used to be when blacks were “owned” by white slave masters. Today, the control of our bodies takes on many different forms: the use of our bodies and labor as economic goods to be traded on
    the market in exchange for security in the form of monetary compensation; the steady supply of mostly poor minorities into the private prison system whose bodies are used as slave labor for the benefit of corporations; the control of women’s bodies through legislation under the guise of “protecting” the woman and the “unborn” which deprives women of their fundamental choice to make decisions about their bodies; regulation of homosexual conduct and relationships which deprives consenting adults of making decisions about how to use their
    bodies in a sexual way; the vindication of the George Zimmermans of the world who – with the full backing of a systemic and cultural ideology of white supremacy that views black bodies as worth less – internalize these poisonous values and believe in their inherent right to decide the fates of innocent black people and deprive them of their right to exist as dignified
    human beings without being stalked, marked, harassed, and murdered with impunity. And even those of us who are victims of oppression in some other way, nonetheless, often become agents of the system, internalizing its values and beliefs and turning on those below
    us in the hierarchy who are deemed “inferior” or “less than.” In this way, hierarchy not only
    controls our bodies, but also our minds.

    Working
    Toward a New Paradigm A hierarchical system that facilitates social and economic relationships is extremely harmful because it creates relationships of power that are based on
    coercion in which freedom cannot exist. Power and freedom are essentially opposites: power seeks to control and dominate while freedom is about autonomy and self-determination that yearns to determine its own path of expression. While there are varying degrees of freedom that can be bought by moving up the system of hierarchy, no one is truly free – not even the ruling class because its supremacy solely depends on the subjugation of the masses.

    Our goal then is not to move up the hierarchy because this only legitimizes and perpetuates a dysfunctional system of inequality and oppression; the goal is to completely abolish hierarchy,
    which only the people can do. We cannot look to those in power who depend on the system for their privilege to make things better for the majority of people. Logically, the ruling class will not threaten its own interests and power. Our immediate short-term goal must be to
    stop further inequality by building mass movements of solidarity with one another. It is important to note, however, that not every person must get out into the streets to protest; rather, each person can contribute to this movement in different ways, even if it means just standing up for truth instead of “going along to get along.” Awareness is key, but
    we also need to take action. What that action is, each person must determine for themselves.

    A violent uprising against the most technologically sophisticated military in history is certain to fail and will do little to improve relations between various social groups. Because the system of supremacy has – through its divisive nature – literally “taken our best friends away from us” and discriminated against many of them, we must confront our own shadows and acknowledge all the ways we personally perpetuate the system’s ideology and judge
    ourselves and others based on its oppressive values. As a result of the division, there is much distrust between various social groups and if we wish to move forward in solidarity, we must work to repair those social bonds.

    Likewise, we must also confront the internalized fear and desire for acceptance that pushes us to sacrifice truth in favor of comfort and privilege. In other words, we have to reach into the depths of our souls and take our individual power back. A power that is not dependent on the approval of the system, but rooted in self-acceptance and self-awareness. It is truly a radical process that seeks to transform human consciousness by bringing about a revolution from
    the inside out. We certainly have our work cut out for us; but, at this point, evolving into a new consciousness is our only hope.

    Notes

    [1]
    The system we live under is often described as capitalism, oligarchy, corporatocracy, or plutocracy. Regardless of the label, all of these structures are extremely hierarchical where most benefits flow to the ruling class at the top at the expense of the majority of people. While
    hierarchies occur in all systems – even socialism and communism – in those structures inequality between the different classes is much less pronounced and resources are much more evenly distributed.

    [2] Gerda Lerner, The Creation of Patriarchy, (Oxford University Press: 1987).

    • Charlie Grapski

      The problem is not race (that is a problem that exists ON TOP OF this problem) – the problem is out-of-control police culture and a legal and political system that keeps their “hands off” and lets police police themselves.

  • Charlie Grapski

    Carlos – you leave the one CRITICAL FACT out.

    The police immediately on arrival step out of the car with GUNS ALREADY DRAWN (in tandem) [Yet he was not only not committing any violent crime – and no one was in jeopardy of harm – he was not even committing a non-violent crime] and again in tandem – AIM their guns at him – THEN bark commands from a distance.

    Had they not done that by their inappropriate actions – they would not have caused his re-action.

    They never should have been on the scene (clearly) but there should have been someone with training in dealing with the mentally ill sent there.

    AND – they did NOT have to shoot to kill (or even shoot) – to get out of harms way. All that they had to do – was get back into their vehicle.

    THIS was NOT a justified or justifiable shooting. But they did AS THEY ARE BEING TRAINED to do.

    And therein lies the problem. Its the System Stupid – needs to become the mantra of the year.

    • putaro

      They also didn’t have to continue shooting. I counted eight shots in close succession, maybe more. He wasn’t running, he didn’t have a ranged weapon. Two shots, stop, evaluate, continue shooting if necessary. The way they shot is pretty much guaranteed to end in death.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Thats part of the problem. This (fairly recently – this used to be ANTITHETICAL to “good police practice” and “acceptable police behavior”) has become part of the institutional norms of the national “police culture.

        And they are now – more and more – TEACHING/TRAINING the police to do just that.

        This is why this problem is SYSTEMIC.

      • inquisitor

        It was all necessary.

        • Rail Car Fan

          Don’t you ever get tired of clapping yourself on the back with the inner thought that you’re always right..!..?

          Rail Car Fan

          • inquisitor

            The more you disagree with me, the more right I know I am.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Only in your own mind…!

            Rail Car Fan

    • Gregor

      Charlie,
      Did it not cross your mind that people were calling the police, including an alderman, about a crazy man walking around with a knife? Did you not notice the guy start backing up and taking a defensive stance as they were slowing to a stop? Take off your race colored blinders and admit this guy was just another criminal wasting the air we all breathe. Good riddance to him.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Getting a call of a “crazy man” (he was not threatening anyone with a knife – particularly when the police arrived) – does not justifying pulling up, guns drawn, and aiming them at the person.

        I have no “race colored blinders” (But in saying this – you seem actually to have such) – as I have never said anything about the person’s race or the officer’s race.

        I don’t think the race matters in this (it may be something real in the minds of the individual or the officers – but without knowing that – we can still evaluate it and see a problem – that has nothing to do with race).

        Actually – he was not a “criminal” – as he was not committing any crime. He was a mentally ill individual in need of help. Not in need of being shot and killed – by those supposed to “serve and protect” (yes – even him).

        • Gregor

          You don’t know that he wasn’t threatening anyone! The video doesn’t show the time between his blatant thefts and the time the cops show up, AFTER being called in by numerous citizens at 911. You claim the cops had no moral duty to shoot this guy. I would suggest to you that the lack of morality lay with Powell, the dead criminal who will no longer victimize law-abiding citizens. He alone bears responsibility for his death. He chose to act in a manner causing the cops to be called to the scene. He chose to victimize the shop owner and he chose to brandish a knife at cops.
          You really need to calibrate your moral compass, my friend.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Here’s another one who thinks “Cops Can Do NO Wrong”!

            Rail Car Fan

          • Gregor

            Never presume to know how I feel on any particular subject, Rail Car Fan. I am very aware that all to often cops are completely out of control. The state of law enforcement today is a shame to the entire country and an abomination to the Constitution.
            However, I do not allow my attitude to be formed by the mainstream media and the Pimps of Perpetual Victimhood. (Jackson, Sharpton, NAACP, MSNBC, SPLC, the Democratic Party, etc.)
            Everyone is entitled to justified self-defense. Even cops. When they are called to a scene and encounter an advancing armed criminal, who ignores orders to drop a deadly weapon, they have the right to end the threat. Just as I would end the threat… with extreme prejudice.
            Take your Kumbaya High Horse and display it for your buddies at the next Flower Power meeting. Your view on this subject is wrong, plain and simple.

          • Rail Car Fan

            You might have won a point with your comment (and I suggest that very, very remotely), but you lost when you ended with, ie:

            “Take your Kumbaya High Horse and display it for your buddies at the next
            Flower Power meeting.”

            The above does you NO good. Score? RCF 1… You 0!

            Rail Car Fan

        • Gregor

          He was a criminal. He had just committed two thefts, and was committing aggravated assault when he was shot.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      That’s a typical reaction of an academic, vs. a practitioner.

      You have an armed guy with others in the close vicinity, yet you want the police to stay in their cars? Who protects the civilians in the area? Are they just SOL if the perp decides to charge at them with his knife?

      Look, I’m all for cleaning up the mess that police departments have become, to demilitarize them, limit the use of SWAT, punish and prosecute bad cops, move investigations of bad cops out of their own department, etc. I’m not for crucifying them when their actions were proper, nor am I in favor of turning to those that have a reason to be anti-police to set the standards.

      Here, the officers did exactly what they needed to do. There are other solutions, but you weren’t in their shoes and Monday morning quarterbacking isn’t realistic.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Yes – as it should be. And all practitioners – who have your world view – should CEASE to be entitled to “practice” as such.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          Your hatred for police is really showing here.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Yes – I HATE police officers. I just HATE them.

            No. I hate INJUSTICE. I hate MURDER.

            I don’t hate police. What I want – is GOOD policing and GOOD officers to do it.

            What I want is GOOD law – that aims at JUSTICE.

            What I do – is CRITICALLY ANALYZE and OPENLY CRITIQUE – BAD policing, BAD cops, and BAD laws.

            There is no “hate” involved.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            No, what you are doing is typical of so many academics. If you come to a conclusion, you become set on that conclusion.

            Look, I understand that you have had some bad experiences with police in the past. I know that affects your viewpoint, it would not be natural if it did not.

            But here you have two individuals who are on opposite ends of the spectrum, both looking at this and coming to the same conclusion based on the facts and science of use of force encounters. I don’t care for Inquisitor’s normal response to police nor his comments. I have made no bones about thinking that he is a whackjob, and for his part, he disagrees with my views well over 90% of the time and considers me an oppressor or worse.

            This was a righteous shooting.

          • Charlie Grapski

            My experiences DO have a partial impact on my viewpoint.

            Both those with “bad” cops – and good police.

            I believe (and know that many of them do concur) that my position – would make policing better and make police officers SAFER (and more respected).

            But be careful in your words – because what I don’t think you even realize or intend – may be revealed in those words.

            If you said “justified” shooting – I would disagree – but that would be a “reasonable” standard.

            But no shooting is “righteous.” So – and really I don’t want to attack you or discount your views – I would really urge you to reflect critically on some of what you say – at least such as that.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Righteous is used synonymously with justified in this part of the country as far as police officers talking about shootings.

          • Guest

            “This was a righteous shooting.”

            The cops didn’t think so. That’s why they lied.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Of course cops lie. Do they ever tell the truth… (even while on the stand and under oath)? Never mind. Don’t answer. We all know what the answer is.

            Rail Car Fan

          • inquisitor

            …98%

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            I can agree with that. 90 was a typo anyway, it was supposed to be 99…

          • inquisitor

            Yes, I am glad we could not come to an agreement on that exact percentile.

          • putaro

            Well, if you find yourself agreeing with a whackjob maybe you should reconsider your own opinion. Just sayin’

            Kidding aside, I think your position is based on your training as a police officer and I think that training is the problem. Since you’re training to be a lawyer now, you need to be able to take either side of the case. Try looking at it from the other side for a while and see what kind of arguments you need to present to convince people that what we saw in the video is reasonable. I’ll say this – if I, as a civilian, acted like those two cops I’d be in prison.

          • Jamesdiamond

            It’s not just the training LEO’s receive, any credible self defense class will teach the same thing about a person with a knife being able to close the distance faster than you think they could. I’ve had several instructors go over it.

          • inquisitor

            You would be in prison…minus the knife in your kidney.

          • Kerfuffulator

            “what you are doing is typical of so many academics. If you come to a conclusion, you become set on that conclusion.” <— yah, we've NEVER seen you do that. Oh, wait. No.. we ALWAYS see you do that.

            "How red and bloody you are!", said the guillotine to the axe…

          • Rail Car Fan

            “This was a righteous shooting.”

            THAT’S the problem with most cops, former cops, etc. thinking “Cops Can Do NO Wrong!”… and while doing so, get blinded by what’s the right thing to do instead of it doesn’t matter what I do because the union and the thin blue line will stand behind me.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Boko Hos

            Finally, the self-victimization card. The last refuge of a police scoundrel.

          • StreyDawg

            Their hatred for us is revealed in these videos and their response to any criticism of their actions.

      • Charlie Grapski

        The guy was NEVER a threat to the “others in the close vicinity.” NEVER ONCE did he draw his knife and threaten ANYONE before the police arrived. HOWEVER – those people in the vicinity – could EASILY have been hit with (and killed by) one of those two emptied handguns.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          The handguns were not emptied. Neither officer dropped an empty mag, nor did the slides lock back. Try to be precise.

          • putaro

            I would have said “emptied” as well earlier but went back and counted the shots. The Glock is a wonderful weapon and your trigger finger will probably get tired before you run out of ammo. If they’d been using revolvers they would have had to reload. I counted at least eight shots in rapid succession. Sure seems like overkill to me.

            Personally, I’m in favor of overkill in things like military missions. However, policing is not a military mission.

          • Boko Hos

            This isn’t NCIS, stupid.

        • inquisitor

          Just his illegally carrying a concealed knife in public is a threat to others in the vicinity.
          Couple that threat status with committing a crime of shoplifting and he is a further armed threat.

      • Charlie Grapski

        And again – you REJECT the “innocent until proven guilty” principle – when you use the term “perp.”

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          Look up “term of art”.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Look up ACTUAL MEANING. Look up what is IMPLIED in your “term of art.” Look up “Perpetrator.”

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Random House: Perpetrator: a person who perpetrates, or commits, an illegal, criminal, or evil act.

            Nowhere does it say convicted, and Powell committed Aggravated Assault on a Police Officer (twice – two victims). That pretty much means he was the perpetrator.

            Police slang shortening perp (e.g. perp walk) is Amer.Eng., by 1940s. (Harper, online at dictionary.com).

            I could teach you to look this stuff up if you want.

      • Charlie Grapski

        No need for Monday morning quarterbacking – to see they had A CHOICE: shoot (and this does not entail the necessity of shoot to kill) OR get in the car.

        Getting in the car – would have eliminated any threat. And would not have been difficult. It WAS an option. It SHOULD have been CHOSEN.

        • inquisitor

          I don’t believe that would have been a sane course of action with a guy walking toward you with a knife out at 12-15 feet distance.

          And for the officer on the driver’s side to attempt to re-open his door to get in…suicide.

        • sfmc98

          Getting in the car – would have eliminated any threat

          You keep saying, “get in the car.” Then what? Wait for other cops to show up so they can sit in their cars too? At some point, someone has to deal with this problem. As soon as someone gets out of the car, he’s likely to advance towards or attack them as well, ending in the same result.

          They didn’t show up on their own, they were called there to handle it. You have no plan to deal with this situation except, “get in the car” which isn’t a plan at all, but a delay of the inevitable.

      • putaro

        Well, we live in a democratic society and everyone gets to weigh in on these things. That’s the difference between living in a democracy and living in a police state. One issue is that the use of force rules are largely hidden and they’ve been created by the police and enforced by the police on themselves and then used to justify their own actions. I’m sure there are many cops that would disagree with your views on demilitarization, use of SWAT, etc. and call you a candy-ass. That’s why we need transparency and discussion. Ultimately it’s supposed to come down to a majority view. Perhaps the rest of us are overly sensitive or just maybe we represent the majority. Until these issues are brought out in the open and discussed, though, with things like these videos to show just what the consequences of these use of force rules are, we won’t know if society as a whole views this as justified or not.

      • Guest

        “Here, the officers did exactly what they needed to do.”

        Does that include their lying and perjuring themselves in the incident report? Does that include them being traitors to their oath to uphold the laws?

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          Yawn. Spread your fertilizer elsewhere.

          • Guest

            The “yawn” part is one of the very rare honest comments by you. Of course it’s a big yawn to you when cops routinely, routinely, routinely, lie, lie, lie. That’s who and what you are. And it shows through all your careful deception despite your best efforts.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            No, the yawn is because it is from you.

            You’ve already proven that you have no regard for the truth when you write, so there is no point in listening to what you have to say.

        • Snake Eyes
      • pete

        I don’t agree with you on much ex-cop, but on this one I do. Weapons are used to kill. Someone is coming at you with a weapon in a menacing manner holding a knife, I will always assume he plans to use it. The mans mental illness is not the cops problem. They have every right to defend themselves. Even with a fake hip, I can close the gap pretty darn quickly from a distance. Someone who is young and nimble, would have much better range.

      • StreyDawg

        It is not the job of the police to protect anyone. They have exonerated themselves of any such obligation in multiple cases.

  • fergusonCivilrights

    Dear PINAC readers, I almost inadvertently crashed the website by posting 2 very long articles directly– copy & paste– instead of pasting the URL/link. Sorry about that!
    As for the Tueller drill of 21-feet “deadly distance”, this concept is predominantly used by LEOs to kill mentally ill people. If non-LEO persons do this, the investigating detectives and the prosecutor will be charging you with a serious homicide charge with the attitude that you should’ve attempted to retreat or at least deter the onslaught by firing a warning shot or presenting the firearm and warning the madman that any closer and you’ll be forced to shoot. In other words, their are very lenient rules for LEOs and far more stringent and non-forgiving rules for the rest of us. Plus, LEOs have qualified immunity in the event that the decedent’s family sues the LEO in civil court, but for regular folks it’s SOL.

    • Ted Nuggets

      In some states a person has a duty to retreat, I’m not aware of any in which a police officer has a duty to retreat, it is their job to apprehend and stop bad people, whether they are crazy people with knives or bank robbers with guns. Firing warning shots is something for bad movies, not real life. They presented their guns, both had them out and pointed at the suspect.

  • fuckthepolice

    Every time you call 911 the cops kill a black man…
    …and the video contradicts the official narrative.

    • gock

      Exactly! The police had the video but still lied about the distance and the victim’s arm position. They didn’t think we would notice?

      • inquisitor

        Technicalities. Fog of war type stuff.

        • Charlie Grapski

          Yes – that annoying “technicality” that police don’t want to deal with – known as “the truth.”

          • inquisitor

            The truth is…I would have done exactly the same thing, except given an accurate account in the report.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Why American need to ensure you – and those with your viewpoint – are never given a gun and a badge.

          • inquisitor

            No worries Charlie, I have no desire to work for the cop mafia.
            We simply disagree on the justification for this one.

          • Charlie Grapski

            Its OK. i don’t mind people disagreeing or holding differing viewpoints.

            That is why I stressed in the last post – that it was not meant as an insult when I said that those with your viewpoint ought not to be in the position to make that decision.

            Very few people are likely to do the right thing in such circumstances – and those very few are those who ought to be sought out to be given a badge and a gun.

          • inquisitor

            The right thing was done in these circumstances.
            I have extensive training with a firearm and self-defense and this video illustrates effective self-defense and protecting the public on the part of the officers.
            I praise them.

          • Charlie Grapski

            But look to that last part. Before the officers arrived – what threat to the public did this man pose? (I don’t mean HYPOTHETICALLY – I mean ACTUALLY).

          • inquisitor

            Didn’t he just shoplift at a local convenience store while carrying a concealed knife?
            He was carrying a concealed weapon, probably in violation of the law prior to police showing up.
            He was also aggressive enough to pull a knife and close the distance on officers with guns drawn ordering him to drop the knife, while the crazy man yelled…”shoot me”.
            More than obvious the potential regarding public safety…actually.

          • Charlie Grapski

            I don’t know if that is correct. It may be – but I don’t know. It was not stated initially that way – it was stated that 911 was called about a person “acting strangely” after he left the store.

            But shoplifting is not a violent offense that justifies starting out with an armed approach.

          • inquisitor

            Cops had a suspicion based upon his hand being in his pocket and drew their guns.
            Had he removed his hand from his pocket with no weapon, then perhaps a different outcome.
            But lo’ and behold out comes a knife followed by a brazen approach toward the officers.
            Whether shoplifting is a violence offense is irrelevant at that point of the encounter. What is shown is that the officers having started with an armed approach was justified.

          • putaro

            If he’d come out of his pocket with a Tootsie Roll they’d probably have shot him. They were majorly keyed up and ready for action, they didn’t escalate based on the situation.

          • inquisitor

            Guy just shoplifted…he wasn’t just standing there.
            Guy pulled a knife and advanced while cops had guns on him and ignored their communications that he drop the knife.
            Story told…happy ending.

          • Snake Eyes

            The incident report was released and states that the alderwoman contacted the police and said he had a knife in his hand and another knife in his right pocket. The police responded to more than just a shoplifting incident. You can view at least part of the incident report at http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/08/video-st-louis-police-kill-kajieme-powell-near-ferguson.html

          • putaro

            In your opinion. Not everyone shares your opinion and just because you say so doesn’t make it right. That’s a key problem in the “cop mentality” which you seem to share.

          • inquisitor

            You are full of shit and don’t know what you are talking about.
            Anyone here that knows my posts can tell you I never support the police and am extremely outspoken against their corruption.
            Just don’t see corruption in this video.

          • putaro

            No, it’s not corruption. It’s overuse of force. You think it’s OK, the cops think it’s OK and you think because you say it’s OK everyone else has to agree with you. Just like the cops.

          • inquisitor

            So now you need to argue the definition of corruption rather than verify that your accusation that I share a cop mentality is false.

          • putaro

            I said “In your opinion. Not everyone shares your opinion and just because you say so doesn’t make it right. That’s a key problem in the “cop mentality” which you seem to share.”

            You haven’t said anything to contradict that. Whatever you say is gospel and everyone else should shut up. Just like the cops.

          • inquisitor

            …or perhaps just like an intelligent person who has some experience in this area and knows what the fuck he is talking about.

          • Rail Car Fan

            @ Inquisitor…

            Just because someone doesn’t have experience as a cop, yet sees cops get away with things that the average person would get arrested and jailed for, doesn’t mean that they aren’t intelligent… or shouldn’t make a comment.

            All your above post shows is your inability to counter “Putaro’s” comment with any type of meaningful dialogue.

            Rail Car Fan

          • inquisitor

            You make no sense in this regard…

            I have never, ever supported the actions of police officers on this website in reference to any videos or articles highlighted here.

            I am not justifying the shooting because of the police officers.
            The shooting is justified because of the armed and advancing threat and any civilian, or myself, would have been wise to shoot the guy.

            For some reason your hyper-over reactive mind disregards those realities as to what is motivating my opinion the shooting was justified.
            It doesn’t matter who the shooters are, just the circumstanced regarding justifiable self-defense.

      • Charlie Grapski

        In defense of the CHIEF of police in St. Louis – I don’t believe HE had the video – when he made those statements to the press and public.

        I actually think he TRIED to do the right thing.

        The problem is – one (or both) of those officers (or perhaps someone else – but it should have been what the officers told him) seem to have made that claim (it is likely in the Incident Report).

        All he did was publicly state what was in the Incident Report. He had no chance to verify it. Yes – he tends to believe what his officers write. He OUGHT NOT to presume that (but should presume the possibility that it is NOT the case – and review all claims by officers CRITICALLY – before “confirming” them).

        So SOMEONE made that up – to embellish the story – because they KNEW that the facts alone were not strong enough to MORALLY justify the shooting. And that is the problem – now the question is – WHO made those claims.

        If it turns out that either or both of the officers did – then they should be deemed UNRELIABLE – (even if it was justified – which the system will confirm – even though “citizens” who see this will tend not to understand that – as it ought not to be consider UNDERSTANDABLE (and thus JUSTIFIABLE).. But if either of those officers EMBELLISHED the facts with CLEAR LIES (no lung, and absolutely no overhand grip moving in a downward motion from – and you leave this out – what the Chief said was THREE OR FOUR FEET).

  • fergusonCivilrights

    LEOs are a powerful tool of social control. This is why for example in
    Wisconsin, governor scott Walker screwed with all the labor/unions’
    “collective bargaining” 3 years ago EXCEPT with LEOs (and firefighters–
    who I consider incredible Heroes who uplift society rather than destroy
    minorities’ communities for their gain, upward mobility, and economic
    advancement). And when the Occupy wall street movement was going on 2
    years ago, the NY city police union decided to renegotiate their
    collective bargaining union contractual terms (convenient time when
    their services were most in need) and mayor bloomberg and chief ray
    kelly had to go along with their demands.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      Wisconsin has also required outside investigations for officer involved deaths.

      • Boko Hos

        Investigated by whom, another cop?
        LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

        • Rail Car Fan

          Yeah…

          That’s like closing the barnyard gate after the cows have escaped. Lotta good that will do.

          Rail Car Fan

  • Barney Cox

    Carlos, many people view these videos on phones and the most comfortable way to view them is in portrait mode, you reveal what a little whiny pain in the ass you are every time you castigate someone for this habit.

  • Charlie Grapski

    On a side note: I have Lawrence O’Donnell on in the background (I have to go back and watch his Last Word segment again – because it is very good).

    He is analyzing the EVIDENCE as in WITNESS STATEMENTS in the Brown killing – and criticizing the NYT article today.

    It is a VERY good analysis of the existing eye-witness evidence.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      This is the same O’Donnell that is a liberal shill?

      I am NOT impressed with his LACK of analytical ABILITY.

      • James M Morriss

        So you’re say you Are impressed with his analytical ability or just just that his lack of analytical ability is just not so outstandingly bad that it impresses you?

      • Boko Hos

        I agree. Lawrence O’Donnell does a very poor job of analyzing police activity because he firmly believes in the use of force to impose his progressive propaganda on the public. He refused, at first , to even call out that POS with the NYPD that was arbitrarily spraying Occupy protesters with pepper spray.

  • John H Johnson III

    1. The pigs didn’t have to murder him because the could shot him once in the leg. They didn’t have to shoot him so many times and why the fuck did they handcuff him after he was already obviously dead???

    2. Pigs didn’t have to murder him because the pigs could of used tasers.

    3. Pigs could keep talking to him. You know, using their social skills? Probably didn’t work because they can’t identify themselves with the local citizens of town, more the reason why we need police officer only from the towns they work in and the people identify themselves with the police.

    4. Also, noticing the obvious biased on this page lately to our fellow citizens in Ferguson.

    Consequences:

    Nothing less than 2nd degree murder.

    • inquisitor

      Aiming down and shooting a leg reduces chances of making a hit and reduces stopping power over a torso shot.

      Tasers are not as reliable and limited with number of rounds as a gun with a magazine is while hitting a moving target.

      There is no talking with a man who just committed armed robbery coming at you with a knife in-hand while telling you to shoot him…when he sees you have a gun on him and all he has to do is stop and drop the knife…but instead advances to close the distance even more.

      • Charlie Grapski

        And that “lower percentage” shot – for most of American history – was the standard EXPECTATION of police actions. It is only VERY RECENTLY – that police have given THEMSELVES the authority to shoot to kill and ask questions later.

        Tasers WERE adopted – originally – to be used INSTEAD of guns – IN THESE VERY SCENARIOS (today they are used to persons who pose NO THREAT – but do not “defer to the authority” of police – to force compliance. Which is NOT what Tasers were adopted to do).

        He did not commit armed robbery as far as I am ware. And there is talking to such a man – if the police sent someone TRAINED to talk to such a man (as they are supposed to do).

        As for his seeing and doing as you say: 1) one ought not to have to do so – when the police never should have been aiming a gun at you; but 2) this was a mentally ill man – and the police KNEW IT. So expecting that behavior – was a FORMULA FOR and a GUARANTEE of this outcome.

        • inquisitor

          Cops saw his one hand in his right pocket upon exiting the vehicle.
          Drew their guns.
          Man took hand out of his pocket with a knife.
          At that point, cops proven right.
          Cops tell man to drop knife…communicated more than once.
          Man wasn’t interested in talking or negotiating…advances with knife.
          Man acts belligerent and shows he is not afraid of death.
          Advances with knife.
          Seals his own fate.
          It isn’t rocket science.

          • pete

            Exactly. If that man approached like that, my knive would be out in a heart beat.

          • inquisitor

            You mean your illegally concealed knife that you had on you when you just shoplifted?

          • pete

            Not tracking. It’s legal to carry a knive in California with some limitations. And, I don’t shop lift. Not my gig mate. :-)

          • inquisitor

            From what I am told California has some of the most restrictions on knives in the country.
            And did the knife meet those limitations?
            Blade length? Assist mechanism?
            I am not sure, but I don’t think knives in CA can even have a simple locking mechanism.

            And the big question is can it be concealed in California without a permit?

            And is it legal to carry a concealed knife while committing a crime?
            And is it legal to pull out your legal knife and come at the cops with it?

          • sfmc98

            In California, there is no limit on blade length. And one can carry a fixed blade, so long as it isn’t concealed. One can carry a folding knife concealed, no permit required.

            You can walk down the street with a broadsword open carried, or you can carry a folding machete in your pants, both legally.

            Switchblades are illegal to carry (not possess) and is defined as a knife without a stud on the blade and requiring overcoming some resistance to open. Assists are OK, autos, or ‘out the front’ are not.

        • Jefft90

          ‘tell that to Dillinger or the Youngers.
          quit watching TV and try reading some history

          • Snake Eyes

            I know for a fact they tried to stop Bonnie and Clyde by first firing a warning shot, then trying to shot them in the leg and only then did they let loose with 167 bullets at them. That’s the good old days some characters around here are claiming existed.

        • Boko Hos

          Precisely. Tazers were always marketed as the solution and have been bastardized into weapons of compliance.

      • John H Johnson III

        You’ve obviously never even fired a 9mil… Listen, me how about enlist to be 18X and then you’ll qualify to me about it takes to bring a person down with a simple knife while you have a gun in your hand. All you said was excuses to murder that human being. I’ve been in Europe and none of their police are allowed to play judge and jury, you use your tasers, mace, then your hang gun to a lower extremity to immobilize them. We in the Army do the same exact training and the police are “supposed” to get the same training.

        This is nothing less than 2nd degree murder.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          The room for imaginary solutions is that way –>

        • inquisitor

          I live in Europe. The police in UK and Scandinavia want to carry guns.
          The rest of what you say is crazy talk.

        • Jefft90

          Good luck at Benning.
          Where your using a longer heavier cartridge in your. M9 than the police, You might be using a Hotter load but not sure.
          Most old hands I’ve talked to would prefer a. 45

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            I prefer my Kimber, but I’m perfectly content with 9mm/.38spl or better. The key is always bullet placement.

          • Boko Hos

            Please place yours to the side of your head. We’re all tired of your cop sucking activities here.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Too bad.

      • Rail Car Fan

        Yeah… Yeah… Yeah…

        And your broken record goes on… and on… and on… to infinity!

        Rail Car Fan

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      You’re an idiot.

      Go back to watching John Wayne movies.

      • John H Johnson III

        That was a well thoughtful, intelligent, well thought out reply. Tell me how you can even touch someone 15 feet away or how tasers don’t work?

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          Look up the Tueller study.

          • Boko Hos

            Another useless study that rationalizes deadly force , but qualifies it with measurements.

        • James M Morriss

          You can’t.
          You can cross the distance and kill someone in less than 2 seconds. closer to 1. Don’t think “killed” as lying motionless on the ground. If I cut your throat you might not die for a minute, but you will die. Likewise if I plunge a knife into your heart from under your sternum, you will die but you might have time to call 911.

      • Snake Eyes

        Nah, John Wayne was so good he’d just shoot the gun right out of their hand.

      • HelloFeds

        The fact you used to be a revenue generating extortionist and now are failing a third rate law school doesn’t exactly make you a objective voice on the topic.

  • Luc

    Just one more murder by cop. This murdering cop will claim officer
    safety and nothing will happen to him, except a paid vacation.

  • Juan Montoya

    The new champions of Carlos are ………
    # 1 a strong armed robbery thug who smashed the face of a police officer
    # 2 a knife wielding robbery suspect who charges police screaming “shoot me”.

    • Charlie Grapski

      Yes. Carlos CHAMPIONS justice, human rights, civil liberties. etc.

      And I stand firmly with him championing the same.

      • Juan Montoya

        more like on your knees.

  • Sam Spade

    Carlos says “overhead grip”

    Article says “overhand grip.”

    I see a problem right there. While the terminology of what an overhand grip is could be argued it isn’t an overhead grip.

    • Charlie Grapski

      The Police Chief, yesterday, said “overhand” grip – and then held his fist in the air – like in Psycho – bent at the elbow – gripping a hypothetical knife – and like in Psycho – drawing his forearm in a downward, striking motion – with the hypothetical knife as described.

      BUT we know from the video – nothing even LIKE that occurred.

      The Chief also said the officers told him he was at a distance of THREE TO FOUR FEET. Which is not even close to the truth.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        If I had a penny for everytime a chief f’d up what we put in a report, I would be rich.

      • Buckeye Fan

        The article says overhand grip, Carlos links to an article and says overhead grip. There was no use of the word overhead grip in the article or in the video that accompanied the article.

        If there is another article or video that said or showed an overhead motion then it would be great for Carlos to update the article. I’d appreciate a link to it if you have it.

  • Luc

    YouTube is not allowing me to post a comment on this video.

  • Charlie Grapski

    Let me add this:

    This video – and the official claims that it “supports” the officers and “justifies” the shooting/killing – will, in this context (where people are watching and paying attention), do ONE THING.

    IT will lead to a formal, OPEN, challenge to the unwritten, unofficial, norms of the current police culture nationwide – that has ITSELF declared this approach “justifiable” – and then relied on the refusal of courts, prosecutors, and politicians DOUBLE-GUESSING (or more appropriately CRITICALLY EVALUATION and CONTROLLING) police officials – to have this “normalized” across the country.

    And that police culture and these norms – will be THOROUGHLY UNDER OPEN ATTACK AND CRITICISMS for some time to come.

    AND … those norms and these justifications – WILL BE FORCED UPON THE POLICE to be ABANDONED, ALTERED, and SUBSTITUTED – for ones more akin to those of fifty years ago.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      Yawn.

      No it won’t.

      • Charlie Grapski

        Oh – I can assure you – IT WILL.

      • Charlie Grapski

        You and others won’t like it. You will throw temper tantrums. But the CITIZENS will force the changes – whether you like it or not.

        I GUARANTEE IT. Will it go far enough – I don’t think so. Because it won’t go to HOW this became the norm. BUT – it will CHALLENGE and CHANGE those norms – by force of policy and law. I ASSURE YOU.

        • inquisitor

          I am all for changes.
          But this justified shooting isn’t the reason for them.

      • Charlie Grapski

        The tide began to turn – with the Boyd shooting in Albuquerque. It OPENED THE EYES of the media, the mainstream, the political class, and the citizens.

        With EYES OPEN – the DAILY abuses of that nature – became VISIBLE to those entities – for the FIRST TIME (even though they are longstanding problems).

        The Garner killing in NYC – became a national story – because of that context – whereas in the past it would have been just another day in NYC.

        It rose the temperature even more – bringing forward a larger mass toward the needed critical mass.

        The Brown killing in Ferguson – TIPPED THE SCALES. Including because of the racial element, which is real in that context, but is only a SECOND LEVEL problem in terms of what caused what happened – which ESCALATED the issue to a HIGHER level.

        The CRITICAL MASS has now been reached.

        It is a MATTER OF TIME to see the changes it WILL bring about. BUT – more importantly – it is up to the Citizens CONCERNED about the problem and DISAGREEING with what has become “normalized” – to FORCE that change to go FURTHER than the mere response to the critical mass will entail (it will only go so far to APPEASE the tensions – not to SOLVE the underlying problem).

        • inquisitor

          We simply are not specifically talking about and analyzing those shootings…now are we?

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          The other shootings have nothing to do with the analysis of this one. You judge each situation individually.

          I don’t think that the Boyd shooting or the Garner death were justified, however it appears that the Brown shooting was, and this one definitely was.

          • Charlie Grapski

            The other cases have EVERYTHING to do with the CONTEXT in which Citizens are having their eyes opened – and are SEEING for the fist time – what has been going on “in their name.”

            When you evaluate a SYSTEMIC problem – you don’t judge each situation individually. You look to the SET of situations as a whole.

  • George

    A knife is considered a lethal threat. Therefore if you are within 21ft, which we are trained for, then we have the right to protect ourselves. Thanks for all your stupid comments

    • Charlie Grapski

      Thank you for the revealing personal pronouns “we” and “our”.

      Now that you admit you are trained that way – maybe you’d like to explore how and when such training began (and what existed before that). And how it became “normalized.”

      You should NOT be trained that way. And you are NOT being trained to COMPLY with the law – but to be able to EVADE the law – by doing what you are trained, checking the checklist (knife – check, distance – check) and thinking that is what the law is meant to be understood as entailing, and SAYING (most importantly) the STOCK PHRASES you are also TAUGHT to say (he had a knife, he was charging, he was within so many feet, and “I felt afraid,”)

      I don’t blame you personally – other than you ought to recognize the IMMORAL nature of what you are being trained to do – and are willing to do.

      What I blame is the system that has normalized and semi-legitimzed this training. What I blame is the trainers. What I blame is the heads of the departments. And what I blame is the political “leaders” and system that allow these norms to emerge that VIOLATE the fundamental principles that this nation claimed its LEGITIMATE status upon.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        Wrong.

        • inquisitor

          The training should be 30 feet, not 21.

          • Falutin Free

            I prefer meters.

          • inquisitor

            Others here would seem to prefer a blade deposited in their lung as part of their humanitarian outreach.

      • http://Www.youtube.com/user/ftgjustice F.T.G.

        Very well said.

      • James M Morriss

        Charlie, anyone with self defense or combat training is taught that 21′ rule. I have seen a man demonstrate that from 10′ he could deliver 3 fatal cuts with a knife in less than 2-3 seconds. He could cross the 10′ and cut fatally you in less than 1 second. It is not unreasonable to have shot a man that was threatening you with a knife when he was still a short distance from you. Like it or not, the cops do have at least as much right as you to defend themselves.
        That being said, THIS video seems to depict someone that was either trying to put on a big show and didn’t expect to actually get shot or someone trying to goad the cops into killing him. I think the cops could have used less than lethal force in this situation. The man walked away from them, the cops could have stepped back and waited for more units. That might have just meant more bullets though. It seems that with all the “less than lethal crap the cops carry, not much is being used anymore. I guess it make for plausible deniability.

        • inquisitor

          Knives are deadly and any idiot can use one.

    • Jerry

      So then why lie and say it was within three feet?

    • HelloFeds

      A cop like George is considered a worthless pussy, more concerned about his worthless skin than the public he pretends to serve, but actually extorts.

      Go die George.

  • Falutin Free

    I’m curious if in the history of internet commenting has anyone managed to change the opinion of someone else during a 100+ comment argument.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      Not that I’ve ever seen.

    • inquisitor

      No. But it is useful in uncovering idiots.

  • http://Www.youtube.com/user/ftgjustice F.T.G.

    I can end the main debate right now by asking this…
    If a regular citizen carrying a legal concealed weapon took the same action, would all of you cop defenders be saying the same thing that it was a legit shoot.
    “Badges don’t grant extra rights”
    F.T.G.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      He would be no billed in Texas.

    • inquisitor

      Rushing the police with your legal knife after you just committed a crime and ignoring their commands to drop the weapon while you see their guns are drawn and pointed at you?

      Eh…doesn’t the scenario kind of answer itself?

      • James M Morriss

        depends on how much PCP you have ingested….

        • inquisitor

          Or how many energy drinks you just guzzled after you shoplifted them.

          • HelloFeds

            Oh look! A cop lover who is a racist. Wow, that never happens!

          • Falutin Free

            What does guzzling energy drinks have to do with race? Also, inquisitor is far from a cop lover. I have only been around these parts for a couple of months and it is quite clear to me that isn’t the case.

          • HelloFeds

            Energy drinks and shoplifted = referring to Michael Brown = bogus story = he paid for the cigars = racism. Maybe I’m wrong about “inquisitor” being a cop lover. But I’ve met plenty of cop trolls who will go off on some actions by some cops to appear even-handed, but their agenda is always to protect the bulk of their own.

          • Falutin Free

            I think he is referring to the report that this guy who was shot had just shoplifted said items not Michael Brown.

          • HelloFeds

            Oh, well that’s different. I mean, I’m all about shoplifters being executed on sight by pathetic, cowardly, heavily armed agents of the state. That’s just fine then.

          • Falutin Free

            That isn’t what I’m saying. I’m just pointing out that inquisitor mentioning the energy drinks wasn’t a racist remark in my opinion.

          • HelloFeds

            OK, point taken. Many homicidal maniac cowardly police officers are not, in fact, racist. Just homicidal and cowardly.

          • inquisitor

            You lose X 2…idiot.

        • HelloFeds

          Oh, the old PCP propaganda. PCP makes the majority of people spaced out. Not violent. Just anti-drug psyops props for the pig-supporters.

          • inquisitor

            …idiot.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Once again…

            You’ve lost the argument when you call your adversary names instead of using FACTS to disprove what he said.

            Rail Car Fan

          • inquisitor

            He proved he was an idiot. After that all else is futile.

    • Raylan Givens

      The answer is yes. Whether a police
      officer or citizen, the same law(s) apply. Imminent fear of serious bodily
      injury or death or to protect a third party from either allows you the same response
      and protection.

      • Rail Car Fan

        The same laws may apply, but as we all know, cops can (and do), get away with breaking the laws and get away with it… so there is a difference. After all… ya gotta protect “the thin blue line”.

        Rail Car Fan

  • Charlie Grapski

    UPDATE: Interview Regarding the Request and the Records Obtained

    http://youtu.be/FIxBQibzzyk

    • Voice-Of-Concern

      You should post this on the other thread, or even as a stand alone piece

  • Alexander Vucelic

    cops lie – always

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      And you’re always: 1) wrong, and 2) a whackjob.

      • inquisitor

        This is where we…diverge.

      • Rail Car Fan

        And this coming from a EX cop?

        Rail Car Fan

    • Charlie Grapski

      Unfortunately – MOST do. And are being TAUGHT to (directly by the training and indirectly by others in the legal system who condone it) and EXPECTED to (by prosecutors).

      It is DISGUSTING to watch. And believe me – I have watched too many of them do it too many times.

      • inquisitor

        I concur.

      • Alexander Vucelic

        one of my buddies was a deputy DA for a medium sized city for a number of years. he learned to despise cops as incredibly dumb, pathological liars, and arrogant fools

        • Boko Hos

          Which is why they make good lawyers too, hence ECLS and his/her chosen professions. Lawyers and cops are on the Top Ten List of professions most likely to contain sociopaths.

    • Boko Hos

      And are trained how to do it and supported by unions for doing so.

  • Karl Krautner

    Hey Carlos. Love your work. However, you need to correct this story. The police reported and “overhand grip”, not an “overhead grip”. An overhand grip is simple having your hand wrapped around an object, with the thumb opposing the other fingers (as opposed to the way you would hold a switchblade, with the thumb at a 90-degree angle to the other fingers).

    @Difster:disqus … You need to look at the overhead of the scene. You are WAY OFF with your 25 feet, thought the police are not much closer with their 3-4 feet, as that is the position, he landed in, after having been shot. Also, Powell clearly approached the police with the knife drawn. Retreat behind the car was no option at this point and neither was changing weapons. This was very clearly a “suicide by cop” scenario.

    @All … Regardless, my one point of contention here is that police in this country are generally taught three tactics that should land them and their superiors behind bars for life for each shooting death that involved them: a) Shoot-to-kill and b) Empty the magazine, c) The use of hollow-point, frangibles/pre-fragmented ammunition, which is banned internationally for use in wars (!!!)

    • Guest

      Hollow point ammunition is designed to lose its energy inside the body of the intended target which does two things. It creates the most possible trauma inside the body so the target will be disabled quicker. It also reduces the chances of over penetration (coming out the other side of the body) to lessen the likelihood of hitting something behind the target.

      • Karl Krautner

        “possible trauma inside the body so the target will be disabled quicker”

        That is a very nice euphemism for maiming. Just like “stopping power”. But since you are into “explanations”, try this one on for size: A 9mm hollow-point creates an average crush cavity of about 10″-12″ with an average diameter of about 5″. That comes out to about 50-60 cubic inches about a quart of volume per shot. I counted 11-12 shots in the video above. That comes out to about 550-720 cubic inches of crush cavities in Mr. Powells body? You think that was enough “stopping power” and “disabled” him while “lessening the likelihood of hitting” bystanders, or was it the complete destruction of any vital function with no chance of recovery?

    • Robert Hansen

      Hollow point ammunition is used because; 1). It’s much less likely to pass through a person and hit an innocent bystander. 2.) It is more likely to stop a threat with less rounds.

      Did anyone notice the knife wielding man looked over his shoulder and then circled so no one was behind him?

      Police are not trained to kill or empty magazines. They are trained to fire enough rounds to stop the threat. In the event of multiple assailants, you would want to still have ammunition in your firearm instead of needed to change magazines while taking fire.

      • Karl Krautner

        “Police are not trained to kill or empty magazines.”

        Hm… You might want to tell that to John Firman, director of research, programs, and professional services at the International Association of Chiefs of Police, who said that “In all policy everywhere on force in any law enforcement agency in America, the bottom line statement should read: If you feel sufficiently threatened or if lives are threatened and you feel the need that you must use lethal force, then you must take out the suspect.”

        Again, 11-12 shots either means an intent to completely destroy the attackers body or training to keep shooting until all movement stops or the magazine is empty.

        Hollow-points are used because they cause the most damage. Period.

      • Kerfuffulator

        What eggzactly was the “threat”, for the 4 bullets they put in him after he was down on the ground?

  • nrgins

    Even if they felt compelled to shoot him, whatever happened to just shooting once? Why do they always have to shoot to kill?? I could understand if he had a gun. But with a knife, you shoot once, he falls to the ground. If the gets up and keeps coming towards you, you could shoot again. But if you shoot once and he falls to the ground, then that’s all you need. Why is every shooting a shoot-to-kill situation??

    • inquisitor

      How many 9mm rounds in the torso can a PCP crazed criminal take before he is completely incapacitated before he closes 12 feet in lightning fast fashion before cutting your throat?
      And how effective will you be, under stress, to analyze the effect of each round you fire along that continuum of his attack to use this abstract minimum you describe so that you don’t end up dead?
      How much would you like to see your family when you get off work today?
      How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop?

      • HelloFeds

        Oh yeah, PCP. The dreaded PCP. Whenever a pathetic coward with a badge shoots a little old lady or a 12 year old “they were high on PCP! They were smokin’ Sherms! They make ya CRAZY!!”

        When someone starts using PCP as an excuse for their violent, cowardly thuggery, you know they are either a worthless cop or an apologist for the same.

        This isn’t a website for cops. It’s for people who are going to expose them as the cockroaches they are. Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame Officer Pussy. It’s coming.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          That proves you’re an idiot.

          Thanks for playing.

        • inquisitor

          You conveniently refuse to answer the question, nor do you know how PCP can effect the equation.
          You have probably never met anyone while they were on PCP.
          Except maybe…your whore mother.

          • HelloFeds

            I know more about PCP than you do. PCP is a dissociative. It was the subject of a “synthetic panic” in the late 70s and early 80s and became the excuse du jour for paranoid incompetent LEOs. Like you.

          • inquisitor

            Not a LEO

      • nrgins

        Oh, shut up!

      • Karl Krautner

        Did you see any “lightning fast”, “PCP crazed” attacker in this video? I sure did not.

    • HelloFeds

      Because they only care about their own worthless, paranoid, skins.

    • Robert Hansen

      Common law enforcement rounds of 9mm or .40 caliber rarely drop an attacker for physical reasons immediately. Many people simply fall after their brain realizes “I’ve been shot.” If you take deer hunting as an example, a deer doesn’t usually fall down right away after being hit in the vital area. They usually run some distance before they succumb to their injuries. People aren’t deer, but they don’t die or fall down right away either. Only a hit to the brain stem will drop someone immediately every time, but that target is about the size of a golf ball.

      • nrgins

        That’s a valid point. Still, I would think you could shoot once, give them a chance to stop, and then, if they keep coming, then fire multiple rounds. It just seems to me that a single shot, especially when they’re still at least 10-15 feet away should be the first thing that is tried. And if they choose to keep coming after they’ve already been shot once, well, then you have no choice. But least TRY to stop them with a single shot, which might not take their life. It seems to me that this procedure of firing multiple shots as a first resort is a blatant disregard for human life.

        I saw a video about 6-12 months ago, where a teenager in a house started approaching a cop with a knife. The cop told him to drop it, and when he refused, he opened fire, killing him. Now, this kid was walking very slowly, maybe 1 mph. And he was still at least 10 feet away. But the cop emptied his gun into him anyway, even though a single shot would’ve stopped him, it seemed to me. But because they’re trained to immediately unload their guns whenever they shoot, that kid is dead, whereas a single shot probably would’ve stopped him.

  • Robert Hansen

    For those that think deadly force wasn’t reasonable, at what point does this knife wielding person pose a threat of serious bodily harm or death to the officers? Does he need to be 5 feet from the officer? Does he need to be stabbing the officer? Is the officer supposed to be able to know this man’s mental state? He’s clearly a threat to use a knife or he wouldn’t have closed the ground between himself and officer.

    • inquisitor

      The officer is to sprout angel wings, flutter just overhead and pacify the attacker with Jesus quotes and knock knock jokes while sprinkling sleepy dust on his head.

      • Robert Hansen

        Many say we shouldn’t grant police extra rights and I agree. A regular person on the street would be justified in using deadly force and so were the officers. Responding to deadly force with a tazer is not reasonable as you respond to deadly force to stop the threat of harm. If the man continued to hold the knife but did not close the distance, after some time the officers would likely have employed a taser. I do think there is room for discussion on how officers respond to mentally unstable people though. I think in this case PINAC is hypocritical in it’s reporting.

        • inquisitor

          The action of closing the distance is crucial in the analysis…as is not putting the knife down when told to.

          • Rail Car Fan

            You ever think he might have been confused to the point of NOT understanding what was being said? Of course not. By your previous posts, with you, it seems to be you’ll just SHOOT, SHOOT, SHOOT!

            Rail Car Fan

        • HelloFeds

          Actually, that’s not the case. Self-defense means there is no other option. When you could just step back into your car and drive away, that’s an option. Tasing is an option. Grabbing the person’s hand is an option. Not being a thug cop is an option….

          • Robert Hansen

            All of those options in this scenario do not remove the threat of harm. After the officers arrived on scene the knife wielding man closed enough distance that they would likely not have enough time to get into their car. Go stand outside your car tomorrow and have someone run at you from 20 feet and see if you can turnaround and get in safely before they touch you. Grabbing the hand is laughable. Tazing would be an option if the distance wasn’t closed so fast. If you choose any of those options, severe bodily injury would be one of the likely outcomes.

          • HelloFeds

            Too bad. Don’t like risk, don’t be a cop.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            You don’t have a right to expect officers to be stabbed to make you feel good about yourself.

            You don’t like it – too bad.

          • HelloFeds

            I expect police officers to be brave, not cowardly pieces of shit who shoot old ladies, dogs, kittens, 12 year olds, and whoever the fuck else because they are incredible pussies who only care about their own worthless lives.

            Clearly you have lower expectations, and I’m sure in your illustrious career, you met them.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Yawn. Liar.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Once again… you’ve not replied with facts.

            (Using your quote)… Nice try. Thanks for Playing!

            Rail Car Fan

          • inquisitor

            And none of those are in this video.

          • Boko Hos

            We have the right to expect it, but not enforce it.

          • Rail Car Fan

            What we do have a RIGHT is to have cops do and act in such a fashion as to NOT arbitrarily kill someone “just because they can”… while knowing they can get away with it.

            Rail Car Fan

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Fortunately, that is not what happened here. Unfortunately, you are not bright enough to realize it.

            Thanks for playing.

      • Rail Car Fan

        And you wonder (with comments like yours above), why people here take what you say with a grain of salt.

        Rail Car Fan

    • HelloFeds

      Of course it wasn’t “reasonable.” Only a complete coward would think it was “reasonable.”

      Oh yeah, we’re talking about American police officers.

      • Robert Hansen

        You ignored the question. So exactly at what point would he have been an imminent threat of grave bodily harm?

        • HelloFeds

          Probably after he actually stabbed you.

          • inquisitor

            I think that is a good standard for you to follow.
            See you in the morgue.

          • HelloFeds

            If you don’t like risk, don’t be a cop. Your job is not to get home safe tonight believe it or not. There are entire European countries – replete with their own knife-wielding mentally ill people – where the police killing ANYONE is exceptionally rare. Then there are the psychopathic cowards we call police officers in the USA.

          • Robert Hansen

            I get it now. Thank you HelloFeds. Cops aren’t people and have no right to exist it seems. Thanks for clearing that up.

          • HelloFeds

            No, you obviously don’t get it. So let me repeat it for you.

            “There are entire European countries – replete with their own
            knife-wielding mentally ill people – where the police killing ANYONE is
            exceptionally rare. Then there are the psychopathic cowards we call
            police officers in the USA.”

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            There are also entire European countries (Germany comes to mind) where the public knows if you attack a police officer with a knife, the attacker is going to die.

            The public expects the police to do what they need to do, and they don’t expect them to pander to idiots like we have here.

          • HelloFeds

            Bullshit. German cops fired like 12 bullets in an entire year, and that was all at one person. You couldn’t be more wrong. But of course, you’re a cop. Your job is to lie to the public to protect your worthless, parasitic revenue extraction. Now go put some marijuana smokers in jail to keep me safe.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            LOL. I’m not a cop anymore JT.

            Besides, in 2011 German cops fired 8,897 rounds in the line of duty. Are you attempting it has gone down to 12 since?

            BS, but thanks for posting that. Now we know that you make stuff up (otherwise known as lying).

          • Boko Hos

            Thank God. You just morphed from one parasitic form to another.

          • putaro

            85 bullets fired by the German cops in 2011 is all over the Internet. Here’s a somewhat credible source: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/11/11662345-german-police-fired-just-85-bullets-total-in-2011 What’s your source for 8897?

          • fergusonCivilrights

            claims by cops that law enforcement is an extremely dangerous job is a
            myth. look at the statistics. Meanwhile, they kill over 400 people each
            year. American cops are trigger happy, and eager to scratch a kill-notch in their gun belt.
            http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39437.htm

          • Accountability for All

            I think ECLS confused the Firing Range, with street duty.

            Shocking, just SHOCKING that he’d arrogantly pull some figure out of his ass and act like it meant something… again…

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            It’s in the original article, at http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/polizei-schoss-2011-seltener-im-dienst-a-832037.html.

            Mit 85 und 8.812, Scheiße-Kopf, und Sie am Ende mit 8.897.

            Keine von diesen waren am Pistolenbereich, alle waren auf dem Feld.

            Unlike HellFed, I went to the original source and did not pull a number out of an ass, like he did.

          • Accountability for All

            Really? Apparently, going to the original article did not prevent you from Quote Mining, to completely misrepresent the issue.

            Here is the Google Translate version of the first paragraph of the article:

            “85 cartridges fired police officers in Germany in 2011 on the hunt for criminals, 49 of which were
            nationwide warning shots. 36 times gave the police from aimed shots. In this case, 15 people were injured and six killed, as can be seen the police in Münster, Westphalia, from statistics of the
            German University.”

            But no one would know that from your bullshit, which was after all, your intent.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Isn’t that always a cop’s (or in this case a EX-cop’s) intent..!..?

            Rail Car Fan

          • Accountability for All

            Here is the full article (courtesy google translate)

            Schwerin – 85 cartridges fired police officers in Germany in 2011 on the hunt for criminals, 49
            of which were nationwide warning shots. 36 times gave the police from aimed shots. In this case, 15 people were injured and six killed, as can be seen the police in Münster, Westphalia, from statistics of the German University.

            This was presented on Tuesday in Schwerin Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Interior Minister
            Lorenz Caffier (CDU) as chairman of the Conference of Interior Ministers (IMK). “Our police are not” thugs in uniform. “They are exclusively the law and obliged to fulfill the task that we as a society them on constitutional basis,” said Caffier.

            The German Police University annually collects on behalf
            of the IMK numbers for service weapons use. In 2010, seven people had come by a police bullet killed and 17 people were injured. Overall was nationwide shot at people 37 times, 59 warning shots were fired.

            “It is gratifying that the tendency of all forms of the use of firearms by police officers against people is diminishing,” Caffier said. It is important that the Minister of the Interior and Interior senators showed the public that the police officers exercised the constitutional right of state’s monopoly of legitimate.

            The number of shots on dangerous, sick or injured animals
            dropped – by about five per cent on 8812 cases (2010: 9336).
            In almost all situations, the animals were redeemed according IMK suffering from their injuries due to traffic accidents.

          • lewknukem

            For Germany it was 85 bullets in 2011, which included 49 warning shots. This article does say around 9,000 but says those were for dangerous, sick or injured animals. http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-police-used-only-85-bullets-against-people-2011/52162/ or http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/46907/us-police-fire-more-bullets-month-germans-use-year

          • HelloFeds

            Sorry, I was wrong. Not 12. 85. out of which 49 were warning shots, meaning 36. I’m glad you’re not a cop anymore. For the rest of us.

          • Rail Car Fan

            @ EC-LS…

            ” I’m not a cop anymore.”

            Thank God for little favors!

            Rail Car Fan

          • fergusonCivilrights

            claims by cops that law enforcement is an extremely dangerous job is a
            myth. look at the statistics. Meanwhile, they kill over 400 people each
            year. And your point about German/European cops is absolutely correct. American cops are trigger happy, and eager to scratch a kill-notch in thir gun belt.
            http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39437.htm

          • Boko Hos

            You’re one of the idiots here, sorry to inform you.

          • fergusonCivilrights

            claims by cops that law enforcement is an extremely dangerous job is a
            myth. look at the statistics. Meanwhile, they kill over 400 people each
            year. American cops are trigger happy, and eager to scratch a kill-notch in their gun belt.
            http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39437.htm

          • fergusonCivilrights

            claims by cops that law enforcement is an extremely dangerous job is a myth. look at the statistics. Meanwhile, they kill over 400 people each year.
            http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39437.htm

          • Kerfuffulator

            Of course the German Police are MUCH better and more extensively trained than American Cops. That little detail might just be a HUGE factor in extreme difference in the use of deadly force

          • inquisitor

            And in those instances the knife wielding person wounded and killed many.

          • HelloFeds

            Evidence?

          • inquisitor

            Still waiting for your answer to my question.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Inquisitor…

            You had a intelligent question? Sorry, we didn’t realize that.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Robert Hansen

            There aren’t reliable stats for fatal officer shootings in the USA, but there should be. The bigger problem is we have officers enforcing laws that perpetuate violence, poverty, and lack of economic mobility. The war on drugs has a real outcome of both civilian violence, officers responding with violence, and lack of economic mobility. Without the war on drugs I’d speculate our homicide rates would look much like much of Europe.

          • HelloFeds

            Well, I can’t say I disagree with you there. But I think there is something unsettling and wrong in US policing beyond the war on drugs, and that is a brutal, sadistic proclivity for violence combined with a pathetic sense of ultimate entitlement.

          • Robert Hansen

            That unsettling change largely came as an outcome of the war on drugs stemming all the way back to the Nixon administration. Obviously we disagree on the use of force here, but would this man have ever been in this situation without the war on drugs? Perhaps he was busted for possession once, thrown in jail, and lost his job and his mental state began to deteriorate. Meanwhile we have 3 former presidents guilty of the same “crime” but simply didn’t get caught.

          • inquisitor

            I am walking towards you with a knife and am now 12 feet and closing?

            What are you going to do?

            Because I hope you grab the taser instead of your Glock, I really, really do.

          • Kerfuffulator

            Grab the Taser or fire the Taser?

            After all, in this case, the guns were already drawn, so “grab” is not really part of the relevant question, now is it?

          • Rail Car Fan

            Is anything “Inquisitor” says relevant?

            Rail Car Fan

    • Al Verum

      Deadly force was not reasonable. For crying out loud I can shoot a squirrel 100 feet away with a pellet rifle and these guys can’t shoot for a knee – or back off for more than 23 seconds.

      • Robert Hansen

        Yet the squirrel was no threat to stab you right? Answer the question in the original post. Do the cops need to wait until they’ve been stabbed to use deadly force here? If that is your position, if flies in the face of thousands of years of law across multiple cultures and countries. Everyone has the right to respond to deadly force and defend themselves.

        • Al Verum

          They didn’t wait for anything. BTW they didn’t use Deadly Force———————————— They used UNGODLY FORCE.

    • Al Verum

      Hey RH have you ever handcuffed a dead man? Is that reasonable. These were sick idiot cops. They murdered a man and then handcuffed him and then next time they will probably kill someone they have already handcuffed. You are incredulous. Now go get your allowance from your cop.

      • Rail Car Fan

        Handcuffing a dead person is a reasonable as the TSA wanding someones bare legs and arms… and just as stupid.

        Rail Car Fan

    • Kirkus1964

      So someone coming at you with a weapon is a threat, and you can shoot him. Is that your argument?

  • Keyser Soze

    All cops are wannabe murderers. Its why they become cops in the first place: they want a taste of blood, but are too cowardly to join the military and ever have to fight a real battle. Never call them, for any reason. Buy a gun and defend yourself. The police will kill you.

    • Larry Moe

      Buy a gun and defend yourself? You mean shoot someone instead of running and hiding in your car? Murderer.

  • William Pike

    you know that the police only use tasers on 14 year old girls and on elderly men in wheelchairs..

    • Boko Hos

      And 8 year old children who’s parents can’t make them eat their vegetables. They pretty much use them for everything, other than what they were intended for.

    • LibertyEbbs

      This^^

      And unfortunate souls trapped under five adrenaline-addled baboons screaming “Stop Resisting!!” And compliant but mouthy MFers who just need to be taught a lesson, amirite?

      You see, this scenario was exactly the sort of scenario that was used to sell tasers to the public in the first place. Now they wouldn’t even dream of using Sparky the Fun Gun on an actual threat.

  • Boko Hos

    This is the perfect video to ferret out the cop suckers on this website. As soon as you read the word “justified” just stop reading because they’ve already confirmed the brainwashing was successful. All cops are trained in how to kill or restrain people, but none of them are tested for good judgement. You really can’t teach someone how to be the ultimate cop and you probably won’t be reading about nor hear from any on this website. Most cops are assholes that either couldn’t do anything else for a living or didn’t want to and , in either case, probably had no business in uniform to begin with. It’s a sad state of affairs, but all one has to do is look at the entrance requirements for any LEO and you’ll find out exactly why this website will never lack in substantive material.

  • Nemo

    Ask the friends and family of these cops, and they will tell you that they are “nice guys”, and insofar as they interact with those friends and family, said friends and family are right.

    Now, tell me how the statements of those people is substantially different than that of a tear-streaked inner city mother, telling the camera that her arrested son was a “good boy”. Explain that one, if you can.

    • Al Verum

      The difference is a paycheck that is earned by the cops – it buys off a lot of family.

    • Rail Car Fan

      Nemo…

      I hope I haven’t misread your post, so…….

      As the past will tell us… there are many who have been illegally arrested and convicted, maimed or killed for a crime they never committed.

      IS THERE a difference between your examples above?

      Rail Car Fan

  • Difdi

    To a person of normal courage, the world is a generally good place. The sun shines, the rain falls, and people live their lives.

    But to a coward, the world is a looming and terrifying place.

    To a normal person, someone stepping off a curb is someone stepping off a curb. To a coward, it’s a murderer lunging at him to make the coward his latest victim. And the more the coward hears stories of imagined near-death experiences from his fellow cowards, the greater his terror as he imagines everyone he sees might lunge and murder him at any moment.

    And 99 times out of 100, no one in authority sees anything wrong with jumping to worst case conclusions on no actual evidence when deadly force is being considered. Is it any wonder the death toll keeps rising?

    As I’ve often said, police work is dangerous and cowards shouldn’t apply for the job. But far too many do.

    • guest

      There is stepping off the curb and there is someone stepping off the curb towards you carrying a knife that he has been lawfully ordered to drop.

      Was he a threat? Unless you think he was offering the police officers a free shave, yep he was a threat. Crazy people with knives usually are.

      • Rail Car Fan

        Your reasoning is like a few who think that way… while many others don’t.

        Rail Car Fan

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9O1KQPypbI SmashAnarchy

    I’m not the cop’s biggest fan … but that looks like “suicide by police officer” to me.

    • Al Verum

      Again we don’t let cops go Kevorkian.

      • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9O1KQPypbI SmashAnarchy

        Sure we do. If some idiot that just committed armed robbery is acting irrationally and aggressively, I am in complete favor of the cops terminating his existence from this Earth. In this case, the cops were justified, whether you like it or not.

        • Kerfuffulator

          ” If some idiot that just committed armed robbery”

          Which did not happen here.. next

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9O1KQPypbI SmashAnarchy

            Maybe you’d like to tell us why the cops were called then.

        • Rail Car Fan

          Let’s see if I get your reasoning right.

          A 6 year old kid (who had been playing cowboys and Native Americans with his buddies) goes into a local corner store with his mother while still having his outfit on.

          He decides to snitch a 25 cent candy bar and run outside with it.

          Cops pull up (and because he has his plastic Native American knife in his hand as he ran out) the cops jump out of their car with guns in hand and shoot him DEAD.

          I mean, after all… under your way of thinking… he “just committed armed robbery” and “in complete favor of the cops terminating his existence from this Earth.”

          Well, I guess there are some out there that feel the same way you do. I’m glad most of us have common sense the other way.

          Rail Car Fan

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Here’s your sign.

          • Rail Car Fan

            @ EC-LS

            I knew if I pushed the right buttons I could get you to respond the way you did. It took a while, but I accomplished it… and I’m not even a attorney.

            You better bone up on on how to read your adversary in court, or he’ll burn your butt with every move you make.

            “Nice Try. Thanks for Playing!”

            Gotcha……..

            Rail Car Fan

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9O1KQPypbI SmashAnarchy

            I see nothing wrong with your reasoning. There is essentially no differences between a grown man committing armed robbery and a toddler playing dress-up and shoplifting a stick of gum. All rational, logical people would agree that both deserve the death penalty. You are a very smart person for being able to underscore this for us. Very smart indeed. Good work.

  • Smelly Dukakis

    This shooting is totally justified you guys are retarded

    • Al Verum

      No it was the dead man that was mentally ill ….. and you are just Smelly!

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9O1KQPypbI SmashAnarchy

    If someone has you at gunpoint, especially if it’s a police officer, you’re very foolish if you behave the way this man acted. Any time you are dealing with cops, you are dealing with legitimized death. You probably wouldn’t grab a rattlesnake by the tail, a tiger by the toe, or a scorpion by the head. And you probably should not act aggressively and shout “SHOOT ME MUTHAFUKA!” to the cops while they have you at gunpoint after you just robbed a store.

    • Al Verum

      Legitimized death? Ever heard of something called the constitution and the d of c. SmashAnarchy. Hmmm. Statist. Yes

    • Jerry

      Yeah its almost as if something was mentally wrong with this guy….. good thing these psychiatrists showed up or he might have hurt himself

      • Rail Car Fan

        I know it’s NOT fun to chuckle at what I’m going to say, but I think (hope) you’ll get my point in relationship to what Jerry said above.

        There have been times when cops have SHOT and KILLED a person who was thinking about committing suicide so he wouldn’t hurt himself.

        Rail Car Fan

    • putaro

      It’s pretty obvious that he was either mentally ill or on drugs. Those were not the actions of a sane person.

    • Kerfuffulator

      Straw man alert

  • Al Verum

    23 seconds – looks like a professional hit to me.

    • Guest

      I’m not familiar with the type of professional hit where the hitman gives the victim multiple opportunities to surrender and avoid being killed.

      • Al Verum

        Same end different means. Try being a human being – it actually makes life more enjoyable.

    • Raylan Givens

      For once you’re right. This was professional.

      • Al Verum

        Professional killers with their choir of the itty bitty minds with big mouths.

  • Al Verum

    Pull up to the curb, take aim, fire off 12 shots for good measure and take a desk job for a week or two – now they have their street creds.

  • Al Verum

    Here is a new chant “23 and dead”

  • POLARPICS

    pepper spray,, batons, bean bag shotguns, or tazers werent an option?

    • Al Verum

      Are you kidding? Not nearly as effective as a 12 shot volley – got to get those street creds.

    • Guest

      A man is 20′ from you holding a knife and advancing on you, refusing to put down his knife.

      You have a can of pepper spray, a baton and a taser on your belt. And a gun.

      A man can cover 20′ without sprinting in about 1.5 secs. Let me know what you are going to do.

      Let’s try a few scenarios, you grab your pepper spray off your belt, extend your arm and press the button. Total time elapsed, 1 sec. The man is now 6′ from you and still moving at you. What is your next course of action?

      That didn’t work out too well so let’s try the Taser. The Taser has a maximum effective range of 25′ and is better used at even closer ranges. You reach for your Taser, aim and when the man continues to advance to within 15′ you fire the Taser, unfortunately both prongs don’t fully engage and the weapon proves ineffective, the man is now 3′ from you and a knife is entering your gut. What is your next course of action?

      Again, that’s didn’t work out too well so let’s try again. You reach for your baton and start yelling to drop the knife or you’ll hit him with your baton, the man continues to advance and when he gets within 5′ you start to swing at his arm, he shifts and the blow glances off his arm, hurting him but he holds the knife and continues his attack with an upward thrust into your liver. You get in a few more blows before your blood loss causes you to collapse and you bleed out.

      Last try, you pull out your gun. You tell him to stop or you’ll shoot, when he gets 12′ away you start pulling the trigger and get 6 shots into him and he goes down.

      • putaro

        Two cops. One pulls the pepper spray, taser, etc. and gives it a shot and if the guy charges the other one drops him with the gun. That’s called teamwork and training.

      • POLARPICS

        don they teach multiple baton techniques in the police academy? you would win over more community residents if you keep people alive…bruised, but alive

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      No, they were not an option at that distance.

      • Rail Car Fan

        Yeah, Yeah, Yeah… We’ve heard that same song from you for how many times now?

        Rail Car Fan

    • Rail Car Fan

      Not if you want to earn your “Blood Stripes”.

      Rail Car Fan

  • jcfromnj

    I extracted the sound of the actual shots fired from the “St. Louis PD Snuff Movie” .It appears there were 9 shots fired, the echo would appear to indicate more, but the screen shot of the sound wave histogram shows 9 clearly distinct peaks. They stopped after 7, but thru in two more for good measure.
    http://radiofreenewjersey.squarespace.com/storage/open-carry/shots%20fired%20timeline.mp3

  • jcfromnj

    This is the screen shot histogram of the shots fired……grassy knoll stuff

  • Difster

    Look, this was NOT a justified shooting. The police provoked the man. They could have just taken cover behind their cars and not been at any risk at all. The man was not a threat to anyone before the cops rolled up.

    They could have easily just parked a little further away.

    He didn’t lunge and he didn’t attack. There was no need for this at all. There was only a few seconds between the time they got out of the car until the time they fired at him.

    Straight up MURDER.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      Wrong.

      • Difster

        The coproaches did NOTHING to de-escalate the situation. They rolled up, jumped out with guns drawn and were looking for any excuse to shoot.

        They could have and should have started from a safer distance and from behind cover.

        • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

          They also could have asked Tinker Bell to help.

          Oh wait, that’s an unrealistic fantasy. Like your option.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Once again… Snarky remarks don’t get you any points here.

            Rail Car Fan

      • Rail Car Fan

        I agree that you’re WRONG!

        Rail Car Fan

    • Raylan Givens

      Just like in the Brown case. Brown is innocent because he’s a back male.
      Wilson is guilty because he’s a white cop. Instead of retreating behind
      the cruiser, they should have kept right on driving and never stopped.

      I’ll take “Not getting stabbed in the face” for $1,000 Alex!

      • Rail Car Fan

        And as Alex would say…

        Bllaaaaa. “Wrong answer! You lose.”

        Rail Car Fan

  • Copper+

    Good.., more of this needs to happen. There are reasons why the police tell you to stop and take your hands out of your pockets.., don’t be ignorant or stupid, after all you just stole something from the store. The police do not know what you have in your pockets, they are in situations you will never be in or imagine yourself in one. Also to brag about someone stealing something not of your property is pretty ignorant too as well as stupid. Protect yourself, self preservation!!

  • Dude

    Looks like a good shooting to me. Police do not shoot to wound, they shoot to stop the threat. This is not hollywood. You got a fist, police have a taser, you have a knife, police have a gun. A person with a knife can cover a distance of 21′ in approximately 1.5 seconds. Anyone who says he was no threat knows crap about police training, or knives.

  • MOLON LABE

    August 21st, 2014 What’s The Buzz?

    Police Work, or Soldier Work? – Everyone has something to say about Ferguson, Missouri’s monumental moment of madness. The wire services, the channels, the stations, the headlines, the Internet, the workplace – all are abuzz with Ferguson. But is the buzz contradicted by the truth? That is not a good question, because the buzz is coming from all sides, from all points of view, from all political powerhouses. All sides are buzzing as loudly as they can. The truth will end up supporting some of the buzz, and eliminating other parts of the buzz.

    http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2014/08/21/whats-the-buzz/

  • Kyle

    He had a knife. I don’t understand why unless police are told to shoot to kill instead of shoot to stop or wound. If a cop shoots someone they unload on them half the time. But for some reason you never see a cop just shoot them in the leg or arm to stop them.

    • Raylan Givens
      • Al Verum

        Not the same – the officers had their guns drawn and aimed on the man. You guys are congenital liars.

        • Raylan Givens

          You’re correct. except for the liar part.

          • Al Verum

            No, “liars” is perfect for what happens when the truth is concealed.

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Like whenever you post something?

          • Al Verum

            Hey exslop – RG sends regards and proposals.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Maybe you’d like to try to say something constructive for once in your life.

            Rail Car Fan

    • Kirkus1964

      Shooting a leg or arm is far more difficult than shooting the chest/stomach area, and much less likely to stop the assailant.

      • Al Verum

        NO DUH? Saving a life is more difficult than killing someone too.

    • Dude

      A knife can kill. 1.5 seconds all time takes to cover 21′ and stab you. Most people cant decide what they want at starbucks in 1.5 minutes. Should try making a life or death decision yourself in 1.5 seconds. A police officer is never told to “shoot to kill”. Police are told to stop the threat. The most effective way is to shoot center mass (chest). Can miss arm, leg, hand, head, etc. Cops often shoot many bullets do to (1) adrenaline, (2) who knows if one bullet will stop the criminal from doing what he/she is doing. Not that hard to figure these thkngs out

    • GreenTriumph1
  • Kirkus1964

    If a person walking towards a non-cop citizen with a weapon is an imminent threat, can that citizen shoot him? That would include holstered weapons, because they can be unholstered in a couple seconds. So any police officer or someone open carrying could be shot. If not, why is the criteria different for “imminent threat” for regular citizens different than it is for cops?

    • Dude

      If someone brandishing a knife is walking toward you, threatening you and is close enough to carry out the threat, then yes you can shoot them. Based on Abilitily/cabaility, opportunity, intent of the criminal. Big difference between someone 100′ away, holding a knife and someone 10′ away, holding the knife, walking at you and you have told to stop

      • Kirkus1964

        So, if someone who has a gun is walking towards me, and is 10 feet away, I can shoot them. Is that right?

        • jwalsh

          If is pointed in an aggressive manner….yes.

          • Kirkus1964

            Does that include cops? And what does “pointed in an aggressive manner” mean? Is there way to be pointed in a non-aggressive manner?

          • Dude

            “Does that include cops?” Seriously? If an on-duty police officer, acting in a lawful manor, enforcing the law points a gun at you and tells you to do something and you shoot him, you are going to the gas chamber. If joe blow points a gun at you, yes you can shoot him if you believe your life was in immediate danger .

          • Dude

            You really need “aggressive manner” defined? A criminal is pointing a gun at your head 1′ away…….a criminal is holding a gun straight down his side, finger not on the trigger……..which seems “aggressive” to you?

          • Al Verum

            Unlawful – like the cop in Ferguson. You really need to recheck yourself in for your cop addiction.

  • Bill

    The rule is 21ft for a man with a knife as an immediate threat. A man can close that 21ft before another can draw, aim and fire. I know that these officers did not have to draw, still, this is not the movies. This is real life. When a cop says put the knife down, the only way to earn your life is to put the knife down. Failing to do so greatly lowers your likelihood of a long life.

    • Al Verum

      They murdered him. I really would like to see how you would respond if it were a family member of yours that had been shot 12 times.

  • Keki

    I am not all that savvy when it comes to the laws and what not- but i am quite curious why the police conducted themselves in this manner. perhaps someone can enlighten me a bit.

    I Read people’s comments about this 21ft rule, and looked it up myself, while looking it up i see videos of people bypassing this rule with other training methods, like simply… -Moving out of the way in order to change the trajectory of the knife-
    it seems like the 21ft rule was only meant for the Untrained gun user, yet appears with proper training you can be as close as arms reach. Although i personally think within arms reach is just way too close and a complete dice roll at that point unless your some super badass. the 21ft rule would also be only valid if their guns are holstered or concealed, in the video you can clearly see, both officers had their guns out as they got out of the car

    Anyway what i was getting at, is if this 21ft rule exists, why did they…

    A. allow him to get so close, without even attempting to back away, the driver actually took steps forward- maybe to get a better view i dont know. the passenger (who was in the most danger) after getting out of the car, did not bother moving until the first shot sounded.

    B. there are two officers, why do both officers need their guns drawn? instead perhaps one could of drew, while the other uses a tazer, or sprays mace or idk?
    C. Why do they have to pull their vehicle so damn close? it looks like they already are within the 21ft rule just by arriving on scene. in doing so, i feel this allowed No time to talk the man down, or display any other alternative.

    • Dude

      The 21′ rule is a tool, that basically says “if bad guy with knife that close to you, he can potentially be stabbing you in 1.5 sec). Up to individual officer what to do with that infirmation. Deadly force is met with deadly force. There may very well have been other options available and can talked about forever aftercthe fact. But bottom line, suspect had knife, acting aggressive, ignored police commands, got very close. The police where well within the scope of the law to do what they did. The police do not have to back up, they are there to stop the illegal activity. Both had guns drawn as suspect had weapon (deadly force is not met with non deadly force). Pulled up close becaus thats there job, they responding to robbery suspecy, not going to park 100′ away.

      • HelloFeds

        Bottom line a cowardly cop named Dude defending some other cowardly cops and using some bullshit training they received from other cowardly cops as justification for murder. Business as usual for cops.

        • Dude

          Hmm fail to see how it is cowardly to shoot someone who has the intention to stab/kill you. Next time someone trys to kill, stab, hurt you, lets see what you do. I am guessing you will die or be seriously injured because you could not bring yourself to meet that force with a greater force. Will make sure your tombstone reads “here rests a brave man”

          • HelloFeds

            Of course you don’t see how cowardly cops are. Your entire vested interest is in NOT seeing that reality. Google “cops shoot dog” and see how many of your cowardly brothers kill people’s innocent pets because of their excessive fear. Then apply that to the many unarmed humans killed by cops every year.

          • Dude

            Hmm guess I need to amend your tombstone. …..”here rests a brave man…..stabbed by a knife, bit by a dog, beaten to near uncounscenes by an unarmed man, but to brave to shoot back” You are right, you are a hero.

          • Al Verum

            They kill because they can.

      • Keki

        I guess what i am failing to see is an attempt to preserve or protect life. but maybe i am asking or expecting too much? i dont know.

        from what i see, the guy never charged at the officers, he actually hopped over the cement away and then continued to walk toward the officers more/again, the officers had their guns out the whole time, and never moved to a “safer” distance even though it feels like they had all the time in the world to do so.

        you say police do not -have to- back up, but wouldn’t that have been the correct thing to do? give this guy some space and try to talk to him for longer then a period of seconds?
        to me, i thought police were suppose to serve, and protect, and by that i mean making at least an attempt of deescalating something like this.

        I keep looking at it, and i feel the officers had more then enough time to deal with this man, instead of shooting him

        also i do not expect them to park 100ft away hehe i don’t know what is reasonable, but i also don’t feel its correct to pull up so close, especially for the passenger officer whom was put in the most danger by that.

        I don’t know- i guess i just expect officers to manage scenario’s like this better in this day in age. Personally i have a mental disorder, and it hurts to see someone shot dead so quick. i think, what if it was me?

        • Dude

          Being a cop means you have to make tough/split second decisions. Not having the benefit of watching ur actions on youtube before hand and coming up with new options. At the time the officers felt this was there best option (in seconds). No cop wants to shoot anyone (despite what movies show). Most cops go there whole career without even drawing their weapon. The loss of a life is sad and am sure the cops involved are having a hard time dealing with it. But at the same time what these officers did was legal, was it the only option? Probably not, but was the option they chose. In Graham v. Connor [i] the United States Supreme Court held: “The ‘reasonableness’ of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.

          • jcfromnj

            I don’t see any indication from the video that they are having any real qualms or misgivings. It was like watching wolves descend on a helpless prey.

          • Al Verum

            Correct, but you are arguing with a dummy LOL – LOL-LOL

          • Al Verum

            Nobody forces anyone to be a cop.
            So is it your mommy or daddy that is a cop?

    • Raylan Givens

      When within 10-12 feet or less (with gun drawn) the knife will win every single time. You won’t be able to get enough center mass shots off to stop him before your throat is slit.

      • Al Verum

        You win king of the nitwits today, exslop is second.

        • Raylan Givens

          Actually Ex-Cop Law Student is more intelligent than I. I must insist that he be King for the day. As far as the nitwit thing, I have no idea what you’re referring to.

          • Al Verum

            Ok, I agree you are exslop’s Queen.

          • Raylan Givens

            I think you may be a bit presumptuous. I haven’t even asked him yet. Is there no privacy in this world?

          • Al Verum

            Ok, well then ah ….got kinda creepy with your last comment there, but sounds like a match made right here on PINAC – where do I send flowers?

      • Keki

        looking at this shooting and multiple training video’s all morning, the hardest part is seemingly to be getting your gun drawn and aimed. These two officers are already drawn and aimed at the person, and with ease pulled the trigger.

        in every training scenario i have seen the attacker runs at the gun user and attempts to strike the closest part of the body, which is generally the stomach, chest or body, mid-section, they never aim upwards at the head nor aim downwards at the feet- it is unlikely for that to ever happen because of the momentum the knife user has when running toward ( its also harder to hit the throat specifically) and the time it takes to adjust and aim which is normally explained if you watch a few.

        One of the tactics used is very simple, the knife user is running at you, and you simply step to the side out of his path draw your gun. the knife user is unable to turn quickly or stop, because he must slow down to do so- which buys time.

        Other advanced tactics i saw was falling on your back (changing levels) and using your feet as a defensive barrier. although u may get stabbed somewhere, you are at least protecting your body and your head,

        and then of course there are tactics for knife struggles when you are actively engaged in hand to hand, but i think if this happens, an officer or individual really misjudged the entire situation.

        but anyway this is all leading away from what i was originally asking.

        • Raylan Givens

          What you may not be taking into account is they’re expecting it in the training videos. This gives them a slight advantage to react. In the real world, if the person (such as the person shot in the video) gets close enough (10’ or less), and knows about the 21 foot rule he can kill you with a knife. Even with your weapon already drawn. It’s fact.

          • Keki

            If it is Fact, i request Proof please. Maybe for the Untrained individual you could pull truth from that, but let me be clear, i am speaking about this current shootings events, and not some random event.

            In this situation the officers clearly knew he had a knife, and clearly had their guns drawn and ready. How can you argue that these officers could not expect a possible knife attack? If anything These officers are more ready and more prepared then every training video i have seen today where they draw from either concealment or holster.

          • Raylan Givens

            In an effort to be more clear, being aware an attack may happen and knowing when it will happen generate two different reactions. Reaction time (or lack thereof), are critical in whether or not you survive that attack.

            Within 10′ you will get cut every time. As to where and to what degree depends on the determination of the attacker.

          • Keki

            If you stand still completely frozen, untrained and oblivious i agree, you will get cut.

            If you train for it, use your head, move out of the way, No you won’t

          • Raylan Givens

            Just blink once. There goes .50 seconds. Get it?

          • Raylan Givens

            Just try and do the simple math. If an average person can get to you within 1.5 seconds at 21’ and his starting distance is now at 11’, it will only take him .75 seconds or less to get to you with plenty of inertia on his side.

            Not much time to react, let alone put him down even with your gun drawn and you have a bead on him. In all likelihood you would be the one to die.

    • jcfromnj

      These are carefully controlled scenarios’ I don’t know that any of this valid in a real world scenario. You need to be a real life fire-fight to see just how fast all of those controlled responses fade away. Ask any combat vet about the “fog of war” and how fast the shit hits the fan . In any equally paired confrontation those training exercises drop down to close to zero.
      It’s a cowardly display of what the LEO’s call bravery. A Combat Marine (Marine Recon) told me about the two kinds of bravery, the phony bravery that cops display and the crazy bravery that that the real tough guys know. It’s always stuck in my mind…..
      I see the cops and I think of all the REALLY brave warriors who gave up their lives, and there is no comparison.

      • Dude

        Lol especially since a huge, vast amount of cops are former military. Bravery is Bravery

        • Al Verum

          Former military that are used to killing citizens.

        • HelloFeds

          Real bravery is not two people with guns shooting one person with a knife.

          Real bravery is de-escalating a situation, or going through your entire law enforcement career without ever using your weapon.

  • Accountabilty for All

    Why did the cops shoot four more times once he was on the ground/ What was the imminent threat at that point?

    • jcfromnj

      Empty out their clips ?

    • Raylan Givens

      It’s a safety thing you wouldn’t understand.

  • richww2

    “They could’ve shot him in the leg”

    The LAST thing you want to do when you *are* going to shoot someone is to shoot them in the leg. Idiots.

    • Al Verum

      The last thing one would do is to listen to your drivel.

  • HelloFeds

    All the cops and their supporters trolling here, arguing “good shooting” and various permutations of the self-defense defense need to come to grips with this.

    Police in England and Wales went 2 years without fatally shooting anybody. England has its share of knives and knifings. It has organized crime, street hooligans, skinheads, you name it. It has riots. But English cops managed to NOT KILL ANYBODY FOR TWO YEARS.

    So what is the difference? the difference, as shown by every cop apologist below, is that American police officers believe that they should be able to wield deadly force any time there is any perceived threat to their person at all. Because, they believe that their lives are MORE IMPORTANT than yours; and because they are, unfortunately, frequently scared little cowards.

    Don’t buy their BS. This shooting and most of them are NOT justified. They are the pathetic murderous actions of the most entitled and unaccountable group in America: law enforcement.

    We see you for what you really are. Not heroes. The ultimate special interest group – a violent, self-entitled gang.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/police-in-england-and-wales-went-two-years-without-fatally-shooting-someone/

    • MagicStarER

      <<—– clapping hands!

    • Dude

      Different countries, diferent laws. Call your congressman to change the law. And you know what my life is more inportant then someone who is trying to kill me. Lol the next time you “percieve” someone is threatening you with serious bodily harm I would be curious to know how you handle it. Probably let them kill you, since your life is not more important. Lol guaranteed you be the first one to you call the police.

      • HelloFeds

        Yes we need to change a lot of laws. Hopefully the result of some of the changed laws would be that people who are apparently only one or two steps away from functional illiteracy will not be allowed to leech off the taxpayer while self-righteously killing unarmed people to “protect yourself.” When someone is threatening me with serious bodily harm I back up or leave the situation. And I never call the police. Why would I want to risk being shot by some steroid-popping authoritarian-personality-disorder revenue extractor? Face it, you are a parasite. You take public money in order to extract more public money, and are so entitled that you think your life is more “inportant” than anybody else’s. It’s not. It is less. If the British cops can do it, you can to, but unfortunately our cops tend towards sadism, paranoia, selfishness, and cowardice to a greater extent than their brothers across the pond.

        • Dude

          Hmm very sad that this has to be explained but a man with a knife is not considered unarmed. Your sound asleep at home, someone breaks in, you being unwilling to defend yourself quickly jump out your window and run off into the night, leaving the criminals to do as they please. They leave, you crawl back into bed, a smile on your face knowing you did the right thing and have no intention of calling the police, hmm maybe I will just my door unlocked next time you think as you drift off to sleep. Lol you truley are a great man

          • HelloFeds

            You have no answer as to why your English counterparts somehow miraculously survive while killing nobody, while you and your buddies murder by some estimates well over 1000 people per year, and beat and brutalize thousands more. Don’t worry about it though. If you are a prime representative of police logic and argumentation your side isn’t just losing, you’ve already lost. Your entire argument boils down to “we have a right to kill people to protect ourselves” and the British counterexample proves without a shadow of a doubt that this is an argument made only by self-serving, entitled, cowards.

          • Dude

            Like I said sleep tight…..and dont worry there will always be someone around to protect you

          • Mark Twain

            Can you document that 1000 people/yr claim or did you make it up?

            I have an answer, people in England are less violent. They only manage to murder about 600 people a year over there. We manage to kill each other at a > 12,000/yr rate over here. And murders by gun are in the double digit range, maybe 70/yr. Over here we managed to murder almost 9000 people a year with guns.

            So in a society that murders 20 times as many people/yr and over 100 times as many with guns why does it surprise you that cops end up killing a lot of people intent on murder and mayhem over here?

          • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

            Don’t pay attention to his claims. He makes them up. We caught him doing the same thing with Germany. He claimed the German police only used 12 bullets in the field over an entire year.

            Of course, it was a bold faced lie.

          • putaro

            Inaccurate, perhaps, but not off by that much. In the original article (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/polizei-schoss-2011-seltener-im-dienst-a-832037.html) the German police fired 85 cartridges at humans. 8812 were fired at dangerous animals of some kind.

          • putaro

            You can’t compare absolute numbers, because the size of the populations are so different. US population = 314 million, UK population = 63 million. The US murder rate per 100,000 people is 4.8 and the UK is 1. So, yes, the US murder rate is higher, but it’s more like 5x, not 20x.

          • Al Verum

            With your logic if a cop points a gun at me and I am a bystander then he gets killed.

      • Al Verum

        Your LOL is OLD.

    • Al Verum

      Tremendous post – took the air out of all arguments.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      All the cop-haters and their troll supporters, arguing “bad shooting” and various permutations of kumbyla need to come to grip with this.

      If you like how another country handles their police, you are free to move there.

      We see you for what you really are. Whiners. Pussies. People who are not capable of protecting themselves, but don’t want anyone else to do so.

      • Boko Hos

        The truth is exposed. lol We’re all capable, but we’re always told to let law enforcement handle it. They like having a monopoly on force and violence.

      • putaro

        Well, they’re also free to try to change the system. Funny thing, democracy. And name calling is unbecoming.

      • DickVanstone

        “If you like how another country handles their police, you are free to move there.”

        AKA

        Love it or leave it…

        AKA

        Shut up and assimilate.

  • MagicStarER

    Taser instead of gun? Nah, they would rather taser little kids and old ladies in wheelchairs. If
    someone armed with a knife broke into our houses, and we shot them, we
    would be indicted for manslaughter or worse. The law regarding
    self-defense specifies that you must respond to your attacker with an
    equal or lesser weapon. That means a knife, club, stick, rock, taser,
    pepper spray. Not a GUN. But the laws that we are forced to abide by,
    do not apply to law enforcement. They are state-sanctioned assassins,
    and our Constitutional rights to due process are shit-canned. Until law enforcement is obligated to conform to the same laws as the rest of us, this will only get worse. Our lives are NO less valuable than some 300 lb. donut eater with an IQ of 65.

    • MagicStarER

      BTW – I am a little 5’4′ female and i have disarmed large, well-muscled men of both knives and loaded guns. Why can’t you big, tough, he-man cops figure out how to do that? Why? Because you have been brainwashed and trained into mindless cyborgs with no compassion nor common sense. Wake up and smell the humanity God gave you. Then use it. It is to HIM you will answer one frightening day. Be afraid. Be VERY afraid!

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        I do not fear imaginary beings. Nor do I care about what you have done in the past. There are plenty of examples of people that can disarm people wielding knives, but I note that you do not mention the first rule of dealing with a man armed with a knife, and what will happen if you engage him.

        • Rail Car Fan

          Here we have “Magic Star ER” who “EC-LS” doesn’t care what she did in the past because it blows all to heck any of his postings.

          It’s pretty sad when you’re even afraid of someone like her.

          Good going “MS ER”. I’m glad to meet your acquaintance… even if it’s only over the internet.

          Rail Car Fan

    • Raylan Givens

      Your “equal or lesser weapon” theory doesn’t hold water. If you have a golf club, and I don’t, but do have a gun and you take a swing at me you’re going to be shot. I would hardly have enough time to shop for a golf club of equal or lesser clubbing value.

      The planet Cornball seems to be missing a resident. I’m sure they know you well there. You can go home now.

      • HelloFeds

        It’s amazing. The police officers’ sole argument in all of this thread boils down to this: If I’m scared I get to kill people.

        I am really wondering when our police forces became the largest collection of utterly morally bankrupt cowards on the face of the earth.

        • Raylan Givens

          I wish I had the answer, but I don’t. There are some good people out there and some bad ones.

        • Dude

          Welcome to the real world, its called the “fight or flight” response. A cop will face the fear and fight. Cops do not tie, they do not fight one on one. They fight to stop the threat as quickly as possible, if that means your feelings get hurt then so be it. If you come at a cop with any kind of weapon then you should expect some severe repercussions. If you dont want to have any problems with the police, don’t break the law. But I forgot its society’s fault people turned out bad and no criminal is responsible for his actions…..lol he is just misunderstood. Until you have faced any situation like this, then you have nothing to say

          • HelloFeds

            No, piggy, you don’t call the shots on who gets to say what. Here is what I am saying, since you have some kind of problem understanding arguments made in paragraph form:
            1. US cops kill astronomically more people (frequently unarmed) than their European counterparts, who kill hardly anybody.
            2. Thus everything you say applies not to “cops” as a whole, but to US cops only.
            3. As you yourself admit, the only reason that cops kill so many people is because their notion of self-preservation in the presence of any perceived threat necessitates it.
            4. But European cops either do not place their own self-preservation as such a high priority, or are more willing to take the risks of not answering force with even greater force.
            5. Therefore, compared with their European counterparts, and arguably with ordinary people from anywhere, US cops are more cowardly. They only care about their own skin, and don’t care one whit for the people whom they are purportedly “serving and protecting.”

            So, you have effectively proven that US cops are fearful, cowardly self-serving parasites. Kudos.

          • Nancy Drew

            Europeans also kill each other at a much lower rate than in the US.

            Maybe we don’t have just a cop issue but a cultural issue.

          • putaro

            To some extent it’s the military mindset translated into the US police culture. In a war zone, nobody counts except those from your country. Kill a civilian by accident? Ooops, collateral damage. See someone who looks like an insurgent? Better pop him, he might have an RPG or a suicide bomb. You don’t need trust from the other side and if you kill a hundred enemy combatants and ten enemy civilians without getting any of your side killed, you call that a damn good day.

          • Rail Car Fan

            “If you dont want to have any problems with the police, don’t break the law.”

            Yeah… Right!

            As if the cops haven’t ever arrested, maced, tased, and killed innocent, non-law breaking people.

            And what utopia land do you live in?

            Rail Car Fan

      • Al Verum

        Shoot to kill is par for you in any situation.

        • Raylan Givens

          Only if you don’t yell FORE! before swinging your club.

          • Al Verum

            Don’t get me going with the puns – it is a weakness with me and I don’t need to be misdirected off course.

          • Raylan Givens

            That’s obvious. No need to tell on yourself.

    • Dude

      Actually if someone breaks into my car in my driveway, not even inside my house and I shoot them as a private citizen, its “good for you, have a nice day”. If they did not want to get shot, should not have messed with my stuff. And it is always one lvl higher then the criminal. Cops do not fight to tie

  • someguy

    Here, you guys love criminals so much, right? Let me walk towards you with a knife and see what you can do to disarm me. Cops are allowed to shoot when someone is threatening them with a deadly force. Criminals can make shanks in prison to kill other inmates. Imagine what a knife can do if it makes contact. He was advancing towards to officer WHILE being told to drop the knife. I would like to thank these officers for taking scum off the street. I have the best idea ever. Police are corrupt and evil, right? I say we take away the police from Ferguson and see how it functions. Better yet, all the internet cops should be put in a situation like this. Let’s see what they do. Tell me, would you like to be stabbed because you didn’t want to harm a criminal? Screw tasers, if you have an object that can kill me, you will be met with lethal force because the mission at the end of the day is to go home. People are looking at the effect. Do you ever wonder what CAUSED this? I am sick of the media pushing criminals into the spotlight. It is obviously how they keep their ratings up and our society eats it up. Don’t get me started on Micheal Brown.

    • HelloFeds

      Let me paraphrase:
      “I am excessively fearful and dismiss everybody whom I don’t like as scum who should be killed. The law allows me to kill people, even those who probably pose a minimal threat, but since I’m so ridiculously fearful, and view everybody who isn’t a cop as some kind of animal, I will kill them. My main mission is “to go home”, not to serve you or protect you in any way. Let’s be clear about this – you pay me to collect more revenue for the state and protect myself and so I will kill people but this is the media’s fault and if you don’t agree with me you are a criminal and I want to kill you too.”

      • someguy

        I urge you to watch the video again. I been in criminal justice classes. I had 360 hours logged into those classes. We were taught to shoot anyone that has a weapon that can harm or kill. The man walked towards the cops with a deadly weapon. They shouted to drop the knife. Not once. Multiple times. Is it shocking that he got shot? I don’t know the guy so i can’t pass my judgment. All I can see is the tape and from that I can access whether he is dangerous or not. Their goal is to serve and protect. Their end mission is to go home. To be with their wives, children and family. They are human too. They aren’t free of error and the media puts them on blast constantly. What about all the crimes blacks do against other blacks? No one gives a shit. As soon as “white cop shots black man” pops up, the media goes insane. You don’t have to agree with what I said. This is the beauty of America. This is what I believe to be truth from what I have seen from the tape and what I have learned. You may have different views which is fine.

        • HelloFeds

          OK, this is better. Let’s take the blame away from you, the individual police officer for the sake of argument. The problem is clearly in the laws and training you receive. We know that in England the police kill hardly anybody. but surely the police in England are also approached by people with weapons that could harm or kill. So why are they not trained the same way? Clearly, because someone has decided in the US that cops should be able to kill “perceived threats”, but in much of the rest of the world, or at least in Europe in general, the law and the higher-ups have decided that only the very, most extreme threats should be met with gunfire. Now, if I take back all of the insults and don’t make this about personal cowardice (though I’m convinced this is important) than what explains the difference? I don’t know but I, and many others, are getting sick of the US system which allows police to kill so many with impunity. I would prefer the English system where police hardly ever kill hardly anybody. I think the tide is turning and Ferguson is the clear manifestation of this.

          • putaro

            I think that if the training guidelines were actually published a lot of people would be shocked. It appears that if you come within 20 feet of a cop with a knife they are trained to kill you. An infographic with a bunch of these rules illustrated would be very interesting, I think.

  • Al Verum

    Cops Kill Because They Can!

    • Raylan Givens

      There used to be two sure things in life. Death and taxes, but there’re really three. Death, taxes and suicide by cop. If you want to die fast, hold a knife in plain view, advance on an officer with his weapon drawn telling you to put it down and you refuse, and then be sure to announce to him to shoot you.

      Guaranteed to work every time or your money back.

      • HelloFeds

        Unless of course you are in a country that isn’t the US, where the cops aren’t fearful little cowards whose only goal is self-preservation.

        • Raylan Givens

          Then move to a safer region of the world. I hear the land in Northern Iraq is going for cheap. Maybe you can buy an entire town and start the police department of your dreams there. ISIS PD, yeah that’s the ticket!

          let us know how that works out for you..

          • HelloFeds
          • Barney Fife

            Maybe England is just a safer place to live?

            In England and Wales there were a total of 369 deaths due to assault in 2011.

            In the US there were 12,664 homicides in the US

            728 of those homicides were accomplished by “unarmed” persons, 1694 with knives

            America isn’t Mayberry RFD any longer

          • Rail Car Fan

            Some times you make NO sense at all. Wait a minute… I need to change that to: “Most of the time you make NO sense at all”.

            Rail Car Fan

    • Raylan Givens

      Not really. It’s because they will.

      • Al Verum

        No, it’s because they can that they will. Take away any supposed right to shoot to kill and cops are no longer acting like street thugs.

        • Raylan Givens

          So when a police officer stumbles across a guy raping your wife, daughter, mother, father, brother or sister at gunpoint, the officer should just walk away because his right to “kill” has been taken away?

          Brilliant, just brilliant. why didn’t you think of that a long time ago? Had you, law enforcement wouldn’t be in the mess it is today.

          Not a trick question, but how many brain cells do you actually have?

          • Al Verum

            ….because your scenario happens all the time. Just last week there were two men killed by cops in Missouri and if memory serves me cops shot 100 rapist during the act. You and exslop need to share the rent some where together..

          • Raylan Givens

            By all means it would cut expenses, That would be a change for the better. For you, well, there is no change for the better. You’re not born round and die square. You are what you are. Pathetic.

            It must really suck being you.

          • Al Verum

            Getting to you..

          • Raylan Givens

            Never. I have fun playing “Jeopardy for Dummies” with people like you.
            It’s actually good for me.

          • Al Verum

            Well you have a knack for keeping it dull.

          • Raylan Givens

            Don’t worry about things you can’t control Al. If you insist on doing that worry about what’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

            That should keep you occupied for at least the next five minutes.

          • Al Verum

            Well good for you maybe you can graduate and move on to something like playing with yarn and rolling putty.

          • Al Verum

            “It must really suck being you.” Quoting Don Rickles – you are desperate.

          • Raylan Givens

            Who in the hell is Don Rickles?

          • Al Verum

            Exactly.

          • Rail Car Fan

            Al Verum…

            You proved your point on that one!

            Rail Car Fan

    • Rail Car Fan

      Actually your sentence is incomplete. It should continue on with:

      “And know that they can get away with it as long as there’s no video of them doing it… but even then they can claim they were in fear for their life”!

      Rail Car Fan

  • Dude

    Lol this is so much fun. I think we should all just hold hands and sing. Better yet, lets get rid of allll the police, lets see what happens then. Bet there will be lots of rainbows and sunshine. Best forum ever

    • HelloFeds

      Why don’t you just go to PoliceOne or some other place where all you brave overpaid public servants can circle jerk and chortle about how your mission was successful, you got to go home after slaughtering some innocents.

      • Dude

        Cause I love you man. Come on where the hug, I love all you liberals. I may not agree with what you say, but I respect your right to say it. Thats what makes this country great. You throw insult after insult, just makes me want to love you more

        • HelloFeds

          I’m not a liberal. And I have never had the slightest problem with police. I just don’t like the fact that police brutality is out of control, that cops kill a thousand people or more per year, that they demand respect and think they are some sort of special elites who deserve preferential treatment under the law and in the streets. And I’m going to continue to protest this until it changes.

          • Dude

            I can respect that. Its your right to protest. But all a cop wants people to do is obey the law, easy. And I will agree there are some bad cops out there. But people have a tendency to pre-judge before any of the facts come out. This video for example looks like a legal (albeit unfortunate) shooting to me. But I was not there, if the cops are guilty then so be it. But regardless what the media says, the vast majority of cops are good people, doing a tough job, that not many people can/want to do

          • Rail Car Fan

            “But all a cop wants people to do is obey the law”

            Even when they don’t. Talk about “do as I say… and not as I do”.

            Rail Car Fan

          • Al Verum

            Isn’t it interesting that if you don’t love a cop then you are a liberal. I guess there is something conservative about blowing away people that I didn’t get the memo about.

      • someguy

        Wow, you clearly hold a grudge against police. You aren’t worth the additional responses.

  • Al Verum

    ….one problem the Tueller Drill isn’t called the Tueller Law. Sue the cops and throw in jail.

    • Raylan Givens

      True, very true. But not all things have to be law to be effective.

    • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

      Congratulations.

      • Raylan Givens

        Beautiful, just fucking Beautiful.

        • Al Verum

          Really, RG, get a room.

          • Raylan Givens

            Speaking of rooms….

            Civil Rights have come a long way these days…. They’ll give anyone in a mental institution internet access.

            We have come along way now haven’t we.

          • Al Verum

            We, as in you and exslop.

          • Raylan Givens

            I agree. Anymore complaints you would like to file?

          • Al Verum

            Never complained, but you can go now until I bait you again.

          • Raylan Givens

            It’s not bait. I enjoy conversing with idiots. Makes me feel superior.

          • Al Verum

            No it’s bait and you should know this too – feeling superior is not being superior. You are coming along nicely.

      • Al Verum

        …you are so ez to bait. Remember the cartoon Tom and Jerry – hello Tom.

      • Rail Car Fan

        Here we go again. “EC-LS” posting dumb worded pictures instead of using any FACTS to back up anything he may say.

        Rail Car Fan

  • Guest

    Former L.A. County Sheriff’s Deputy Arrested in Child Porn Bust

    http://www.myfoxla.com/story/26331820/former-la-county-sheriffs-deputy-arrested-in-child-porn-bust

  • Dude
    • Guest

      Everyone knows priests are pedophiles too.
      Too as in also or as well.

      • Dude

        My point is you kind very extremely negative, shocking, horrible things about almost every profession.

        • Guest

          Very true.

  • Dude

    How bout stuff like this, happens all the time, but never see in national headlines

    http://www.kctv5.com/story/25459694/police-officer-goes-above-and-beyond-for-sumter-teen

    • Raylan Givens

      Can’t argue that. Here’s some other stories you never see in the national headline news either.

      Just a partial list.

      7/18- Jimmie Norman, white male murdered by black male. No
      national news.
      7/18- Terry Taylor, white male murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/17- Cindy Raygoza, white female murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/11- Luis Aguilar, 91 year old hispanic male murdered by black male. No
      national news.
      7/10- Brittany Simpson, white female murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/6- Sarah Goode, white female murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/6- Jeffrey Westerfield, white male murdered by black male.
      No national news.
      7/5- Perry Renn, white male murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/3- Laurey Kennedy, white female still in coma from beating by black male. No
      national news
      7/3 Eric Mollet, white male murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/2 Rupert Anderson, white male murdered by black male. No national news.
      7/2 Jennifer Kingeter, white female murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/30 Jim Brennan, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/29 Paul Shephard, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/27 Shirley Barone, white female, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/27 Penelope Spencer, white female, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/27 Inga Evans, white female, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/26 Jake Rameau, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/25 Gina Burger, white female, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/24 Nathan Dasher, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/22 Jonathan Price, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/20 John Whitmore, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/18 John Yingling,white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/17 Allyn Reeves, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/15 Michael Beaver, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/11 Angela Cook, white female, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/11 Nathan Hall, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/7 Harry Briggs, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/5 Laura Bachman, white female, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/2 Robert Mohler, white male, murdered by black male. No national news.
      6/1 William Headley, white male, murdered by black male. No national news

    • Al Verum

      What’s a few buck with all the overtime and private security gigs they get. It takes a miracle to get one fired. Occasionally, one quits to go to law school – or so they say.

      • http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com/ ExCop-LawStudent

        Or retires, like I did. Plus, the taxpayers are funding my law school. Neat huh.

        • Al Verum

          You really are ez. As far as funding your law school – yeah it’s a total waste like most government spending, but you know it keeps you off the streets and that is a good thing. Smooch.

        • Boko Hos

          Parasites are masters of their crafts.

      • Dude

        Amazing, even with such a good selfless act you still find fault. You really are a bitter, pathetic individual and I feel sorry for you

        • Al Verum

          At least I am sincere…”feel sorry for you”.

          • Dude

            Sad sad little person you are

        • Al Verum

          Really Good selfless acts don’t get paraded out like a press release.

  • Al Verum

    Perry Mason 1030pm/ Dragnet 1130pm/Adam 12am – my favorites.

    There is a new show called “ExSlop Paralegal” that may turn out to be ok. It is about a government reject that holds court on web forums spouting his paralegal drivel. He has unwittingly cast a spell on a fictional character type (RG) that dreams of sharing space with him. This weird attraction is helped along by our hero Al who rolls everyone out of the way while finding the time to help ExSlop and RG heighten their awareness of one another.

  • @grantstern

    Classic example of a 2 officer patrol reacting aggressively to a situation when a single patrolman would’ve called for backup, possibly giving the situation time to de-escalate

    • Tonto

      I think the best thing to do the next time someone with a knife is wandering around erratically is to give you a call, you can go over with a bag of donuts and talk the crazy out of him. If it attacks you then throw the jelly filled ones at his eyes and kick him in the leg.

  • AS1124

    Having dealt with a direct family member who’s mentally ill, I can honestly say that the WORST thing anyone can do is call the police. Unless your city has a CIT team ( crisis intervention team) on the police dept you should do anything to avoid calling police. The entire reason for legalizing tasers for police use in this country was SPECIFICALLY for these situations, according to law officials. I was against them then and against them now. The police were in no danger. They PUT themselves near a MI man with a knife. They could have shot him in the shoulder , they could have used tactics to disarm him. There were many options. Murder was not one of them. Reagan threw all the Mentally ill out of hospitals in the 80’s. Now we have a crisis where our MI are being used as bodies in privatized jails for profit or they are being shot like animals ( actually animals are treated better when they are killed ) Our country is in a constitutional crisis.

    • Harry Houdini

      The first thing you need to do is read the article so you don’t continue to falsely claim the man was mentally ill.

      After you do that, try educating yourself in use of a firearm so you don’t say really uniformed things like they could have shot him in the shoulder.

  • AlwaysFilmTheCops

    A person with a knife can attack from 20 feet in a matter of seconds, much faster than it might seem. I’m not a big fan of the police in general. But in this case, when he had a potentially deadly weapon and wasn’t obeying an order to drop the weapon and then he approached the police, he basically signed his own death warrant. Sure, they could have tried something else that MIGHT have worked. But what if the knife-wielder got off one good cut to the jugular? The cops want to go home alive each night. I believe the police were justified in shooting him.

    Don’t approach the police with a knife in your hand. You’re just asking to get shot.

  • AS1124

    I am so disgusted with all the moronic comments from people who have no clue what they are talking about. Here , Ill help you . READ this and educate yourselves. Do the world a favor : http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=CIT2

  • Falutin Free

    Anyone know what the record number of comments is for a single PINAC story?

  • gone

    This seems like police assisted suicide. This guy steals two drinks and sets them at the curb and then paces back and forth talking to himself. He stays and waits for the police and yells shoots. I think at the very least this should call into question police reactions in certain situations, their first line of defense should not be shoot to kill in every situation. Sometimes I question to requirement to become a cop, because it appears that they don’t have the ability to think or the patience to help resolve situation rather they are looking to arrest and kill as quickly as possible. Additionally the shooting was over kill, it was a knife… they could have shot once to disarm him.

  • Frodo

    Typical false reporting. Could the cops have handled this situation differently, sure, but I’m not sad this dude is dead. Any person who plays games with people pointing guns at them deserves to die. If you have nothing in your pocket then take your hand out. If the police tell you to surrender and get on the ground don’t start walking around and then coming at them. No one is going to mourn another dumb thug.

  • http://www.Sidekik.co Sidekik

    Anyone who wants to end the police state and the war on filming police should watch this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjwnNsGwFTI

    It’s for an app which will not only document interactions with police by streaming the audio/video to a secure server, but also hold the officer accountable by initiating a video call to a nationwide attorney network so that within a few seconds the app user is represented by an attorney who will interact with the officer on the app user’s behalf. If the officer does anything outside their authority the attorney will file a lawsuit. If enough people in a given jurisdiction are using the app thenthat area’s police department will go the way of the Maywood, CA police department:
    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/17/local/la-me-maywood-pd-20100617

    For more info you can view the campaign for the app here:
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sidekik-real-time-representation-and-data-storage

  • pwpg06

    He was protecting the people behind him, he knew he was going to be shot, so he moved away so a stray bullet wouldn’t hit the people behind him.. Check it out.. He did that… I counted 11 shot.. 11!!!!!! .. The police has gone rogue. They are acting above the law. They know nothing is going to happen to them. It is happening all over the USA… Nowadays they don’t need a reason to kill anyone. they are criminals with license to kill

  • Charlie Grapski

    For all those who believe that officers MUST shoot to kill and not stop (a trend put out by the officers unions and interests groups – never established by the public through the political process or legitimized by public approval – and it contradicts with principles of justice – as well as longstanding police practices).

    BUT – how many STRAY BULLETS did this OUT OF CONTROL cowardly cop send through the air. How many (we know SOME DID) hit and got lodged in local residential walls?

    What if – as COULD EASILY HAVE HAPPENED – one of those bullets hit one of the bystanders? Went through a window and killed a child?

    What distinguishes this coward-cop’s actions – from a drive by shooting – other than his badge and uniform?

  • tom

    He did have a knife, verified by several witnesses, one of which called 911 to report it. Yet all change their stories after police shot the idiot. Also, anyone who cannot see where the idiot’s body fell, after being shot, are idiots. The guy’s body dropped and came to rest at the feet of one of the cops. Those saying that he was 20ft. away, are as unintelligent as the inner-city “witnesses.” If the guy wasn’t charging the officers, there’d be no momentum. Instead, there was & if cops didn’t shoot, one of them would be dead. The idiots & ignorant media should get used to the fact, that those who behave in a criminal manner & decide to take on police, need to get used to the outcome! Don’t like that? Then don’t break the law…

  • vegababy

    Well I’m in Baltimore City and its very dangerous here but my officer friends said “they can justify this shooting but that doesn’t make it justified. Those boys came hot to shoot.” They didn’t exhibit any of the training I have been privileged to observe and the overhead stabbing action the chief mentioned is noticeably absent. There were no civilians close to the man so why did they come in so close to an unknown subject to begin with? What I saw doesn’t jive with any common sense police action I have witnessed or heard of. I’m a Marine and we wouldn’t have done it that way either and we don’t have the same kind of protective doctrine.

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